Volvo vs Bosch injectors - Euro III D5.

[LJD]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

I'm running 2011D and I have that option (although mine is a 2005 car)...so it's not that your version of VIDA is too new.

Mike...wow...those trim values for your car are incredibly low. I've tested a couple, and never seen them that good...nice work! I don't have the screen shots to hand, but mine go something like...
#1: +07.xx
#2: +08.xx
#3: +14.xx
#4: +00.00
#5: +35.00

#5 is the one I'm looking at first, for obvious reasons. It appears to be at maximum trim (hence the .00).

I haven't got as far as actually attempting to get Bosch part numbers for the different Volvo classes, but two different Bosch dealers thought it was possible. I will have a go at getting part numbers out of them in a couple of weeks, when I'm back from holiday. If there is indeed only one Bosch part number for all, it does beg the question why Volvo have classes and Bosch don't. That seems like a pretty fundamental question - they can't both be right - either they need grading, or they don't. The guy here in Lincoln told me the Volvo classes were a load of crap, basically, and there is only one part. The other two (who have no dealings with Volvo parts) said they'd certainly heard about "classed" Bosch injectors for other cars. It sounds to me like the water is very, very muddy indeed. I don't like muddy water when there are hundreds of pounds at stake. I can't help but feel that the water is muddy because some of the trade don't actually know the answers.

My current plan is to remove #5 injector, and take it to the people who appear to be talking sense for inspection. Given my symptoms (rough idle, 'chugging' at low RPM, smoothing out at higher RPM - which they described before I mentioned it), they're expecting to see a scored needle causing a bad spray pattern, which can be replaced for £95+vat, assuming no further complications. A problem with consumables (washers, etc) in the high pressure side of the injector typically costs £60-70+vat to sort out. If the body is damaged/worn and rebuild is impossible, exchange units can be supplied. What he said sounded very plausible. Another friend who knows plenty about the subject said that non-piezo (i.e. solenoid) injectors can be rebuilt happily if the person doing it knows what they're doing.

They appear to be the people that the trade in most of the East Midlands use, and they have Bosch (computerised) flowbenches on site. The guys in the workshop there said that if my diagnostics were reporting that level of trim, I should just pull it out and get it inspected and flowbenched. I'm honestly not sure what to think, as everyone (in the trade) seems to be saying something slightly different, but at least these guys are talking in detail, and what they're saying makes sense.

I'm very tempted to take them up on the offer of a replacement needle, assuming that's what they find. The refurb carries a one year warranty, and I have the kit to prove whether or not it has worked...so I can go back to them if it's not right. For just under £115, that seems like a worthwhile experiment. If the idle smooths out and VIDA reports a reduction in trim (especially if it ends up as low as Mike's), we'll know it has had an effect, and I can move on to the ones which are being trimmed less. If it doesn't work, I'll know to just keep it simple and go to Volvo. If that approach ends up with near-zero trim (like Mike's), I'll know that that is the safe bet.

What I just don't like is the differences in what different folk (in the trade) are saying. There's this confusion over the class situation, and that almost none of them are talking about actual fault conditions. I get the distinct impression that they simply don't know.

LJD - do you know what they're doing to test them? Seeing if they cause codes...doing a "butt test" for vibration...running the VIDA trim test?

cheers

James

James

they did a leak test and they also had the engine running before stripping the cars.Mine came from a 2 owner car that had rear near side damage only and was scrapped through the insurance scheme

car starts and runs lovely

[foggyjames]

Thanks for the update Did you fit new hard lines, or were you able to get the old ones to seal?

I haven't done a leak-back test yet, as I'm still assembling the kit, but the specialist I've been talking to said that not all faults will create excessive leak-back. My only symptom is a rough idle, especially when cold (and what VIDA tells me). There are no persistent starting issues, besides it stalling straight after starting roughly once every fortnight. It'll start immediately next time. That might be an injector issue, or it might be unconnected.

Mike - any news on where you got your leak-back kit from? I'm on the verge of buying a set of measuring cylinders from eBay and making my own frame to hold them, as I can't find pots, or a rack for them. I've found this (http://www.apdiesels.com/index.php?o...d=43&Itemid=30), but no mention of pricing.

cheers

James

[outnumbered]

Hi James
does this help.
http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/VS2046-SEALEY
if you find them to expensive you can borrow mine.
mike

[micken]

Hi chaps, I'm at work right now and just picked this up so I can't confirm details 'til later and I'm off to the cycle racing in Otley tonight - so it will be later.

I've run the injector test a few times on my 2002 V70 D5 using late 2011 or early 2012 software. A refurbished (they all are now) injector from FRF has a flow correction of zero. Others are broadly in tolerance apart from cylinder 5 which has a flow correction in the 30's.

I'm not sure that being out of tolerance is a massive issue since the management system seems to do just that and manage the situation. Wish the turbo boost control system would do the same 'cos that's my next project.

The injectors that come from main dealers such as FRF are refurbed as grade 2 since you can stick up to two of these in with either grade ones or grade threes without having to reset ecm as Mike explained above. There's a refundable deposit for the return of the knackered injector to the dealer.

Currently I'm looking at cambelt, ancilliary etc replacement and the turbo boost control system sussing out so I'm ignoring the number 5 injector. It's Vida that's giving me the peace of mind to do this.

Cheers,

Mick

[GMad]

Buy the least expensive, they are the same thing

[LJD]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

Thanks for the update Did you fit new hard lines, or were you able to get the old ones to seal?

I haven't done a leak-back test yet, as I'm still assembling the kit, but the specialist I've been talking to said that not all faults will create excessive leak-back. My only symptom is a rough idle, especially when cold (and what VIDA tells me). There are no persistent starting issues, besides it stalling straight after starting roughly once every fortnight. It'll start immediately next time. That might be an injector issue, or it might be unconnected.

Mike - any news on where you got your leak-back kit from? I'm on the verge of buying a set of measuring cylinders from eBay and making my own frame to hold them, as I can't find pots, or a rack for them. I've found this (http://www.apdiesels.com/index.php?o...d=43&Itemid=30), but no mention of pricing.

cheers

James

Used old ones

having watched the mechanic do it , i will try my hand next time. its easy !

just used new clamps and washer (volvo)

then i did this

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=87948

I have good results on my old Golf and land cruiser with this stuff
cost less than £15.00 to buy off ebay and a few pipes etc

[foggyjames]

Thanks for the advice on the kit, Mike - that's half the price of the other commercial kits I've seen, and worth getting at that price.

Micken - is the suggestion that they were once graded (when new), but all are now refurbished (and tested to "class 2" standard, compatible with all three classes according to the 'one hop' rule)? That might explain why Bosch only have one PN - theirs is the equivalent of a "class 2". You said that the refurbed injector(s?) had a trim of zero. Is that just one, or several? I have one injector with a trim of zero (I notice that Mike doesn't...odd!), which I assumed was the reference (hence that's standard). More than one injector at 0.00mm^3 sounds borderline miraculous!

When I last got info from Simon (at FRF), he said he needed to know the cylinder number (for the correct hard line, I presume) and class...so it appears that the class does still matter to Volvo...?

So...plan of attack...obtain leak-back kit for curiosity's sake. Get clamps and washers (with pipes on standby in case of leaks) from Volvo. Take to local refurb place and see what happens! Sound like a plan?

cheers

James

[micken]

foggyjames - I replaced one injector on number 2 pot before I had the Dice/Vida setup due to it leaking and giving me a few winters of poor cold starting. I thought all the refurbed ones were set at grade 2 now but can't comment on the raw Bosch ones, just don't know. When I got the diagnostic set-up and ran the injectors test I got the results as posted and was pleasantly surprised.