The art of Chip Tuning.

[foggyjames]

...to be fair though, there's a difference between "I suspect this car has been in an accident and has been repaired, perhaps not particularly well, potentially even dangerously", and "the tuning work done on this car may be suspect"...*especially* when the person doing the posting has quite openly admitted they only posted that to gauge reaction.

I mean c'mon, playing games like that is not really in the spirit of things, is it?
I agree that people should be free to post genuine warnings, but when it's just a wind up, you're just wrecking someone else's thread.

cheers

James

[Nuisance]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

Do we know any more about that lean dyno pull on the RICA custom map yet? I'm genuinely interested to hear more about that...and get an answer to the question of whether or not it's true that some Volvos leave the factory like that.

To be fair, barging in on a for sale thread is pretty much out of order. I'd expect you to get a reprimand for that whichever forum you're on, especially since you were specifically fishing for trouble.

The car has now been properly re-mapped by the real Volvo tuning experts MTE with a real custom map, and is MASSIVELY better.


Yes The lean dyno pull survived due to the ME7 ECU working overtime to pull back timing and boost to keep things in check. The car was throwing up emissions codes at regular intervals, and cycling the wastegate like mad.

It was quick, but not as quick as it could be, and certainly not as quick as what was paid for.

The clue was in the fact that it went like a rocket when the engine was cold, and tamed down once it had warmed up.

It turns out that it was run to 1.4 bar of boost on the manufacturers stock fuel map.

Yes you are right the engines are run as lean as possible by the manufacturer, this is done in order to meet emissions targets. But the stock map is done based on what is a reasonably low boost of about .7 bar. At the manufacturers boost levels the combustion can be allowed to run a little hotter as less overall heat is being produced. Heat produced is relative to the power output. it's a simple relationship. The leaner an engine runs the hotter the exhaust gasses, and the more likely the posibility of fuel detonation.

In short 14.7:1 is fine for the stock motor at stock boost levels. It was tuned by Volvo to run like that, but at twice the boost level it is dangerous both in terms of EGT's and possible detonation.

Originally Posted by Adam

The reason for using this turbo is simple - it's a direct bolt on allowing for superior performance to the 19T. 300 hp @ wheels is possible without even trying,

By the tuners own admission the Hybrid solution was designed to achieve 300whp "without even trying" now I'm assuming that the Without even trying means no major work on the re-map side.


Here are some of the tuners comments on the situation.



The following are communications to myself from Adam Weber Director of Chip Tuning Ltd.

They were never marked "confidential" or "not for diclosure"

Originally Posted by Adam

Next week I will send you a few dyno charts just so you can see a wider picture. I've got a lot of charts from your own car and of others that are similar, in various configurations. And of course there are charts from older cars. The lean running "scare mongering" that you read on the forums is so ridiculous that it's almost amusing. You will also see how the load on the dyno gives different AFR results, where the less load you have the leaner the car runs, even at full throttle. This again is all down to the ME7 setup.

So essentially yes the ME7 engines are setup differently and they do run lean. But you can of course make them run richer if required

My car was running 14.7:1 at WOT under full load, so according to this it ran even leaner under part load.... No wonder I got 48mpg on a long gentle run and a face full of engine warning lights.

Originally Posted by Adam

Re the fueling...

Bit of history - The 850 T5 with Bosch 4.3 had a relatively simple fueling system with a part throttle fuel map and a 1 dimensional (1 row of values) full throttle fuel map. The full throttle fuel map did not rely on the lambda readings and as long as you are at full throttle it used that map which basically tells the injectors how long to open for. So full throttle on an 850 T5 is a doddle as long as you can measure AFR. The Bosch 4.4 on the CSV70 T5 had a similar setup but there was no 1 dimensional fuel map any more. It was a 2D table with the end corresponding to full throttle. However, still no reliance on the lambda sensors at full throttle. Both the 850 and the CSV70 T5 throttle cars were mapped rich by Volvo at approx AFR 12.0

With ME7, the fueling is basically lambda controlled, even at full throttle. There are several fueling tables, and they use lambda values. This includes the full load fuel map. Almost all phase 2 cars are mapped by Volvo to run at lambda 1.0 up until approx 4500 rpm, after which they richen up to around lambda 0.8. The newer T5 engines run lean up to almost 6000 rpm! It appears that they don't need to run rich for the lower part of the rev range. You can run them at lambda 1.0 over half the rev range and they don't pull timing at WOT. We watch the ignition timing using the VADIS datalogger to check. Hamish's car was highly tuned in a similar fasion and did 30 laps of Donnington Park flat out with no problems at all. So there is obviously something in the physical engine design which allows for this and it does mean you can have performance and economy at the same time.

There are loads of other tables and sensors which work in combination to determine how the engine runs, and fueling is only part of it. For example, the low rpm pickup can be improved not only through fueling and ignition changes, but you can also alter throttle resonse and boost calibration to give you different characteristics. That's what we did on Wobbly's car which allows it to run approx 1.0 bar boost in 1st gear, making it extremely fast off the line, whereas the previous map on his car only ran about 0.5 bar boost in 1st gear and the car felt a bit flat off the line. But, his car is now much less economical and gets approx 100-150 miles less out of each tank of fuel.

This subject is huge! As you discovered with Marco, the best way to understand it is to see it for yourself. However, personal preference also comes into the tuning game, and my idea of ideal engine characteristics might be different from Marco's or Hamish's etc. If you look at Don Norchi's other favourite person's web site (www.wothrline.com) and look at http://www.wothrline.com/Cars_engine...erformance.htm and go to the last 2 charts you will see engine characteristics which I normally try and achieve. This is what I was aiming for with your car and with a suitable turbo it can be done.

Interestingly, the same guy also tells you on this page http://www.wothrline.com/Cars_engine...ine_tuning.htm that the ideal fueling for maximum power is lambda 0.9-0.92 which is AFR 13.5!!! And this guy apparently worked in the Volvo engine development department. So, who's right? Marco with lambda 12.0 or this guy who claims 13.5? Now you see why there is a lot of confusion out there on the forums!

Regards,
Adam.

Yes fine... He claims 13.5 is as lean as you want to go, but mine was at 14.7:1 not exactly 13.5 is it?

Originally Posted by Adam

Regards the fueling, that's very interesting because the standard map is set to run at lambda 1.0 up to approx 4000 rpm after which it richens up. So there is nothing actually wrong with this and it's how yours was indeed setup. Certainly on your dyno chart you can see it richening up to the correct AFR of approx 12.0. However, richening up the mixture low down and altering the timing is what gives you the extra low down torque, which is something we now also do on the cars with this hybrid turbo.

Now you have a whole hybrid car

Regards,
Adam.

Confirmation that mine was at 14.7:1 and by his own admission "correct AFR of 12.0:1"

Originally Posted by Adam

Your map - Yes we did set it on the conservative side. This was done for maximum reliability. We could have got a lot more out of it as we have done with subsequent cars. Bascially, we were unsure as to how reliable the setup was when pushed hard, so coupled with the fact that it was an ex-police car and that 100% reliability is paramount for customers, we thought it prudent to set the tune at that level. We did show you the dyno data, so we were not hiding anything. We have enough feedback from other customers with higher states of tune that reliability is still 100% so we would have been able to offer you a higher state of tune also.

Great I paid £3,500 for a performance upgrade, but got a lame map! If they were so worried why did they fit the hybrid... or was it because Chris's car with the same setup on it went bang whilst mine was being done and they went into panic?




Also worth noting!

Originally Posted by Adam

You can run them at lambda 1.0 over half the rev range and they don't pull timing at WOT. We watch the ignition timing using the VADIS datalogger to check. Hamish's car was highly tuned in a similar fasion and did 30 laps of Donnington Park flat out with no problems at all. So there is obviously something in the physical engine design which allows for this and it does mean you can have performance and economy at the same time.

Proof that BrightonBreezy was right to point out to potential purchasers of Hamish's car that they should beware. It's not the lovely cared for "demo car" that it's being sold as, but has been a development test bed for VT's custom tuning work. it's had many setups on it and by VT's own verbal admission to many people has done many miles on the dyno. It's also been a regular tow car for the racing car trailer as Hamish told me when we were dicussing suspension options for mine.
VT constantly bang on about people shouldn't buy worthless ex-plod heaps of crap, but by their own admission their "beloved" car has been given more abuse than most police cars will ever get.
30 laps of donnington flat out on a lean map with a rcing driver at the wheel...mmmm nice!


In my opinion based on having had a similar setup to the car inquestion, and knowing all that I've been told about it. BrightonBreezy was absolutely correct to point out what he did about that car. It was an honourable thing to do, unfortunately he got jumped on from a great height by a bunch of yobs.


I think you should also know that according to many sources, one of them these links.
http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showpost...3&postcount=15
http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/member.p...astposter&f=45
and another being a direct phone conversation with HLM.
Adam Weber is no longer at Chip Tuning Ltd. and they are no longer able to do custom maping.





.

[Nuisance]

Other issues with the job as a whole were as follows.

It took over 4 weeks to do the work. which should have taken a couple of days.

The custom VT downpipe that I was sold failed at the bracket. The replacemnt has failed again. and I now need to get it re-built

Having told HLM that I need to carry large quantities of weight, and agreed on using standard Volvo springs, I returned to find the car with Eibachs on it and was told that they would be fine. I now constantly ground out the car whilst loaded. I now need to buy some standard springs for the rear and get them fitted.

My original turbo, injectors, and Volvo downpipe, all servicable parts, were retained, or probably "pinched" by HLM despite never once telling me any part of this upgrade was sold on an exchange basis, and no mention of exchange on the invoice.
The parts were not being replaced because of failure, but were being changed for up-rated items, so one would expect ones property returned.

Losses to myself once I've got the car to what it was supposed to be and replace all my "retained bits" will be about £2500.

All in all my recomendation to anyone thinking of using "Hardy and Laurel Motorsports" in Bromsgrove is......

You've got to be out of your mind!

[pigapumbu]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

...to be fair though, there's a difference between "I suspect this car has been in an accident and has been repaired, perhaps not particularly well, potentially even dangerously", and "the tuning work done on this car may be suspect"...*especially* when the person doing the posting has quite openly admitted they only posted that to gauge reaction.

I mean c'mon, playing games like that is not really in the spirit of things, is it?
I agree that people should be free to post genuine warnings, but when it's just a wind up, you're just wrecking someone else's thread.

cheers

James

Of course one needs to back up what they say about a particular tuner or garage. If someone started a thread to test or gauge reaction they should have the facts ready with them incase they were asked to clarify.

To me reading such posts is great cause I know where to open my wallet. I have been cheated by rouge traders in the past and I just wished I had known before hand of customer experiences.

Years ago I had taken my car to do a sound system by a so called professional outfit. The owner used to constantly write in car audio mags. What a joke. I provided all the equipment and spend thousands on it. They took it and what I got was lousy speaker placement, lousy fixing (amps weren't even aligned straight at the back) and a bucket full of interference in the system. He was charging by the hour for his trial and error methods. In the end I had to strip everything off including all the cheap cables put in and gave the car to someone else to do. The result was a lot better.

I wished I was warned about the first car audio place I went to. Like so, it applies here. Where I take my car to service or to tune, I want to know who is capable of doing the job without me having to act as bank manager. Money is not easy to come by so knowing who can do the job properly and who may not is good.

So thank you to those that have been open and honest for sharing their experiences. I can now make my mind up based on what I have read.

cheers

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

Whilst I am not in the market for custom tuning (only wanting to get a little bit more ommph from my car) it is the bedrock of a decent forum and communiy to permit (even encourage) honest debate and discussion about what results and service people get at various establishments and with varying methods...

To also allow the people resonsible for the work or service a change to comment on peoples experiences and results is also laudable...
Not to the point where the discussion turns into a slanging match or roundabout.
Facts being the key here.... Even admitting you got it wrong (whether cstomer or tuner) is also a laudable trait...

Just my opinion, of course, but I am a person who hold customer service as the prime aim in working methodology...

Des. . .

[TangoDeltaSierra3]

Originally Posted by Lance BLACK V70 T5

I think a lot of the above comments are completly bull and uncalled for its upto Justin how he sells is car and no one else, some people may prefer to buy as stock than modded. I also understood he did want to replace his R with an estate but this one was too good too pass by, I too recently wanted an estate but could not find one suitable so bought a saloon people, change there mind there is nothing dodgy about that!

I also think this thread sucks and is nothing more than an attack on VT and VPCUk I feel if it had been about people that actually use this forum it would have been stopped long ago.

So stick that in your unbiased pipes and smoke it!

Lance wake up and smell the coffee for christs sake - it seems to me that there is 2 levels of service at VT and if yer hang around there long enough like such as Wobbly and Viking for examples your bound to become more friendly with them and get better service/favours if stuff goes wrong etc...same for if your in Justins little gang whereas the rest of us are just muppets that have been conned by the amount of false promotion from VPCUK over the years.

[s60ben]

Finally S70T5Chris has posted his missive on how much he was ripped off for with his hybrid and subsequent engine destruction.

http://forums.t5d5.org/index.php?showtopic=961

An absolute Gem of a post.

[foggyjames]

Chris' post really is quite shocking. I'll pop something up about the 'lean burn' stuff tomorrow when I'm less tired!

cheers

James

[S60-MBS]

http://forums.t5d5.org/index.php?sho...220&#entry8685

[insider]

What more can you say as to the nature of the beast.

He can't even tell the truth about the sale of a vehicle.

http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22830
For Sale

http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9101
An Accident

How convenient they forgot to mention the £4000 accident damage on the advertisement