Tachos - Is a separate desk job subject to working time rule

[ilmiont]

Any professional drivers here able to answer this?

I'm beginning to make firmer plans for getting Cat C/C+E/D licenses, which I'd intend to use at weekends for casual work.

Under Working Time regulations the maximum allowed work is 60 hours a week, reduced to 48 hours over a 17-week average.

My primary occupation is my own software business - obviously this is a desk-bound role, completely separate to any driving I may do. Currently I'll "work" anything up to 50 hours a week in the business. I also receive payment for regular freelance writing roles, producing articles for online industry publications. I don't consider this to be "work" as it is in my spare time but I wonder whether it could be construed as work that's also subject to working time requirements.

If I then did an 8-hour shift in a truck on the Saturday, and then repeated that cycle over a few consecutive weeks, I could end up quite easily hitting the 48-hour averaged weekly cap, depending on how busy I am within my business, unless "working time" as applied to tacho rules/EU working time directives only applies to time in some way connected to a driving role - e.g. loading/unloading, vehicle inspection, waiting around etc. - but I cannot see this is the case.

I feel I have a good understanding of tacho regulations except for this point, as I cannot find any clear documentation indicating whether a non-driving, completely independent role at another business, impacts your time allowances. My instinct is it does.

A rough tally back of the past 17 weeks indicates I'm currently over the 48 hours from my business work alone and I could not drive an HGV or PCV tomorrow if I gained my license today. Assuming my interpretation is correct.

It looks as though practically I will need to keep records of all my "work" and "rest" periods when I'm at my desk writing software. Otherwise if I did do a few commercial driving shifts, I foresee a scenario where with my current workload I unintentionally breach Working Time rules. The driving time rules, and rest period rules, won't be an issue in the slightest as I'll be only be tacho driving a tiny fraction of my time, but it looks like I may have to curb the overtime I do in my business if I want to drive a Cat-C/D vehicle at all regularly (or at least be more conscious of exactly how many hours I'm working).

[DaveNP]

My understanding of it is that any 'work' counts against WTD and Tacho hours and has to be recorded usually by a manual entry on the tacho, that may seem a little extreme when considering something like writing software which could be defined as sedentary work, but in the extreme if you've been programming from 9am until 6pm are you going to be wide awake to do a shift from 7pm to 10am driving? As I recall the tacho regulations define a rest period (eg not 'working') as when a driver can 'freely dispose of his time' so not doing something someone will be paying for, this can extend to indirectly paying for as owner operators have been warned for driving Monday to Saturday and then doing their paperwork on Sunday, doing the paperwork isn't rest.

[ilmiont]

Thank you. That is what I thought and logically it does make sense.

It sounds like it could be a right chore though if it actually needs to be recorded as manual tacho entries - say in my hypothetical plans I got in a cab on a Saturday morning, tacho card last used a week ago, then I'd have days worth of "other work" and "rest" manual entries to key in before I could get underway.

I'll learn more about the procedure as I gear up to actually get my license; for now it's just the "do I need to consider the 48 hour rule" which I need to plan for, and it's been helpful to have someone else confirm my thoughts as I can't find specific examples of similar cases (although I'm sure there must be other individuals who work full-time in a different industry but drive on a casual basis).

[Dibble]

Another one of those stupid restrictive Regulations to make life difficult for Heavy Goods drivers and transport firms. I have never heard of anyone being 'done' for exceeding the WTD but perhaps others may know differently.

[Moomoo]

Originally Posted by Dibble

Another one of those stupid restrictive Regulations to make life difficult for Heavy Goods drivers and transport firms. I have never heard of anyone being 'done' for exceeding the WTD but perhaps others may know differently.

If you want a reason for lack of truck drivers look no further than the the amount of stress caused by being fined for every transgression from a rear light bulb out to driving too long because the lay-bys were full.

Been there, done that. ☹️

1994, 7 minutes too early on the Romford Rd. East London, £450, thanks very much!☹️

[Othen]

What an interesting thread chaps - my thanks to all of you. I have no knowledge or interest in the WTD, but like most lay people I had no idea all this was going on behind the scenes.

What a load of bunkum this WTD is. I hope that in the fullness of time the United Kingdom will see fit get replace all this with something more sensible. I was dubious about the benefits of Brexit, but this is surely a golden opportunity.

Alan

[Moomoo]

Originally Posted by Othen

What an interesting thread chaps - my thanks to all of you. I have no knowledge or interest in the WTD, but like most lay people I had no idea all this was going on behind the scenes.

What a load of bunkum this WTD is. I hope that in the fullness of time the United Kingdom will see fit get replace all this with something more sensible. I was dubious about the benefits of Brexit, but this is surely a golden opportunity.

Alan

100% CORRECT!

Codicil: No-one is advocating the reintroduction of forced long working hours.
One of the problem areas of drivers hours is the maximum is seen as what should be worked.

Not many 40 hour weeks here!

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

100% CORRECT!

Codicil: No-one is advocating the reintroduction of forced long working hours.
One of the problem areas of drivers hours is the maximum is seen as what should be worked.

Not many 40 hour weeks here!

Indeed yes, I did say 'replace all this with something more sensible' - not go back to Victorian times.

[loki_the_glt]

Originally Posted by Dibble

Another one of those stupid restrictive Regulations to make life difficult for Heavy Goods drivers and transport firms. I have never heard of anyone being 'done' for exceeding the WTD but perhaps others may know differently.

It doesn't just affect HGV drivers, although they are financially penalised for breaches. I had to put in a 13 hour shift and come back to work 10 hours later for a meeting and "won" myself a "file-note" (aka slap on the wrist) for breaching the 11 hours between shifts rule my employers enforced. It didn't matter that the 13 hour stint was at the request/instruction of my employers.

[DaveNP]

Tachograph rules and WTD are a two edged sword.
As an employed driver I've been glad of the tacho rules on several occasions, when you've already done three 15 hour shifts in a week and the boss just wants you to stay and do this that and the other the legal protection of saying 'I started at three o'clock this morning, its already past half past three in the afternoon, I'm not staying another couple of hours to do all of that' is a good thing. On the flip side now that tachos are digital and analised by computer getting a warning letter from my supervisor for being a minute over my hours is a pain in the butt, but VOSA generally take an educational approach to single minor infringements rather than using a big stick, my supervisor and I now have an understanding that a minute in three months isn't going to lead to a prosecution as VOSA have much bigger fish to catch and fry. Before calling for a total freemarket economy in drivers working hours one may want to consider how tired you want a driver to be when they are sharing the roads with us and our families while at the wheel of 40t of crushing machines.
The WTD is a slightly different animal, it was severely emasculated in the UK by the bosses organisations, with some support from drivers who saw it as a wage cut, and is actually applied as the 'Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations' RTR for truck drivers. When it came in it did actually do something to improve hourly wages and conditions, largely due to many employers not having understood how much it had been watered down in the UK. When one does the calculations over a three month period, with any holiday in excess of the WTD level of 28 days (but that includes the 8 bank holidays), and any hours declared as 'Periods of Availability' (which can cover such things as waiting for many hours at supermarket depots) not counting towards the 'working time' it's relatively easy for a truck driver to still be working 60 or 70 hours a week; and they wonder why people don't want to be truck drivers? WTD/RTR may seem like a heavy handed interference by the state, and I'd have to admit it can occasionally be a pain, but do we want the alternative of an American style system where employers can make staff work mega hours and pay no holiday? The furore over zero hours contracts a few years ago was a similar situation, in that instance workers with little leverage such as basic warehouse staff or waiters in restaurants were at the mercy of their employers whether they got any work and therefore any wages, zero hours contracts did work for truck drivers who being in short supply could command a better hourly rate and could have more choice over when they worked, again a two edged sword.

The imposition of fines for a few minutes early in a time restricted zone or a few mph over a temporary limit on an empty motorway is a different matter again as nowadays they are imposed by a computerised camera system and they don't understand discretion, in 'the old days' a copper would stop you and waste 5 minutes of your time (to make up for the minute you'd saved) before telling you to go away and be a good boy.