Modifications to my V70 T5...

[pyaap]

I reiterate, it appears neither Volvo nor the websites have got it wrong.

Liam,
I'm not an automotive engineer / tuner but my understanding is that 3 bar is the static / atmospheric fuel rail pressure and I'm sure that Adam will explain to you why using that figure is not only fundamentally flawed, but completely wrong.

As for these calculators, they're meant to be a tuning guide, not Gospel truth. But the more I use them, the more I see their value; as I've mentioned already they're the product of decades of experience afterall and more importantly, correlate with other major injector manufacturers, hence they can't all have gotten it wrong. I think it would be worth considering that the BSFCs values used could also be also wrong, 0.65 for an 850R certainly is.

As for different injectors, flow rates are flow rates and it does not matter if its a Bosch, Siemens or Delphi injector. They would have all be tested to provide the same flow rate at a given pressure. In any case from an injector point of view, you don't stand to break anything if you use one that is larger than required but it certainly is possible to break something (the engine most likely) if you use one that struggles to cope.

>I reiterate, it appears neither Volvo nor the websites have
>got it wrong.
>
>Liam,
>I'm not an automotive engineer / tuner but my understanding is
>that 3 bar is the static / atmospheric fuel rail pressure and
>I'm sure that Adam will explain to you why using that figure
>is not only fundamentally flawed, but completely wrong.
>
>As for these calculators, they're meant to be a tuning guide,
>not Gospel truth. But the more I use them, the more I see
>their value; as I've mentioned already they're the product of
>decades of experience afterall and more importantly, correlate
>with other major injector manufacturers, hence they can't all
>have gotten it wrong. I think it would be worth considering
>that the BSFCs values used could also be also wrong, 0.65 for
>an 850R certainly is.
>
>As for different injectors, flow rates are flow rates and it
>does not matter if its a Bosch, Siemens or Delphi injector.
>They would have all be tested to provide the same flow rate at
>a given pressure. In any case from an injector point of view,
>you don't stand to break anything if you use one that is
>larger than required but it certainly is possible to break
>something (the engine most likely) if you use one that
>struggles to cope.

If you plug in a lower value for the BSFC like say 0.4 with 53 psi, the stock injectors are adequate for 250 bhp and right up to 360 bhp! Go the other way on the BSFC, and the injectors fall short of stock power even more.

I can only come to one conclusion here - such web sites are indeed not to be taken as gospel, but rather with a huge pile of salt.

Adam.

[Dan F]

Sorry did I miss something?

BSFC? What does that stand for please?

Also I am assuming that the white injectors are 350Cc and the blue are 395cc is this correct? What are the green ones?

Cheers,
Dan.

[Traduk]

I took an interest in the injector size arguement a long time ago when it was first posted that our cars can run overly lean at WOT especially when chipped.

I have found that throughout a large number of forums that discussions and arguements break down on details and I have concluded that too many people are using conjecture in the absence of the understanding of facts. The confusion is amplified by taking individual components without the holistic knowledge of the concept.

An example of the typical failure to form a productive argument is as follows:

>>I'm not an automotive engineer / tuner but my understanding is that 3 bar is the static / atmospheric fuel rail pressure and I'm sure that Adam will explain to you why using that figure is not only fundamentally flawed, but completely wrong.<<

I presume that you are looking for answers and stating that something is wrong and then looking to a third party to provide information is more of a challenge to the third party than to yourself upon whom the onus should be to further the discussion. IMO your points need validating rather than looking to others to argue against a hypothesis.

I have seen all manner of discussions about the effects of fuel rail pressures. The base points are covered by the pump pressure which in turn is controlled by a pressure controller\limiter and then feeds the rail. The effect of the delivered pressure is a factor of the rail pressure at any point on the rail and the pressure within the the manifold which on a turbo engine is infinitely variable between max vacuum\boost. Already there are huge variables and many of the super tuned race vehicles use different injectors on different pots to compensate for the varying pressure within the rail\manifold.

With regards to the calculators which you claim is right for many other manufacturers. It is a shame that they are obviously wrong for Volvo which tends to make them somewhat useless for discussions on Volvos. If there is an issue then it is why do Volvo use parameters which are at variance with the sites calculators. I feel sure that Volvo will happily tell you why :-)

I am not sure that your arguement on bigger injectors is correct. An injector opens for a few milliseconds and the amount squirted is a factor of bore size and push\pressure. If the pressure is designed for a specific bore then there is no certainty that the same pressure will deliver the desired fuel through a larger bore injector. Again there is much evidence from poke and hopers that erratic running is the consequence of upping injector sizes, especially at idling.

i have a feeling that all of these discussions here and elsewhere are theory in conflict with practical applications and the theory falls down in the face of practical application. Your car (if I remember correctly) is highly tuned, was set up by TME and showed perfect performance in terms of fuel usage. So was mine but not by TME. Do the calculators shows yours as being set with the correct injectors because quite plainly mine fails even at stock.

As for injectors being injectors, have you seen how many variations there are on a theme?. There are all sorts of different heads and furthermore the serious race tuners use bench tested ones to get almost the same flow rate through all that they use. They may be all the same in theory but a box of 50 will have 50 that are different and that is without going to different manufacturers.

>Sorry did I miss something?
>
>BSFC? What does that stand for please?
>
>Also I am assuming that the white injectors are 350Cc and the
>blue are 395cc is this correct? What are the green ones?
>
>Cheers,
>Dan.

Bull Sh!t Factor Calculation?

[don kalmar union]

After such a dry exchange of views I would like to sum up in just two areas where I have some relevant knowledge or real world experience.

TME base the layout of their stall on their clear understanding that when you alter the software of these engines to run in excess of 280/285bhp they start to lean out at high revs.

TME was set up many years ago by Marco Alsterfalk's uncle Thomas who had another very clear understanding that to succeed in the all important but litigious North American market you had to offer a product that was sound and had no likelyhood of causing damage in the longer run.

So, if you want to buy a product that has no likelyhood of damaging your engine, but offers the highest outputs you are advised by TME to specify such additional hardware as larger injectors, bigger intercoolers and so on and so forth. Even with the extra expense of these items TME still make modest, realistic claims: they know damn well that their claims are obtainable on just about any well callibrated third part operated rolling road. Small fans and the wrong sort of snow excepted.

The other area that has lead me to accept that these engines will run damagingly lean when modified above certain levels is my purchase from Volvo of a ready race prepared S60 T5 just over two year ago. This car came with an ECU, slightly modified by Volvo themselves to run the car in a one-make championship in Sweden where they were looking for an output of arround 265bhp, but with slightly different mid-range characteristics. For their own '04 season they supplied their competitors with revised ECUs to get just under 280bhp. All these ECU's had their software rewritten in their own engine devt. dept.

I had one of these '04 ECU's. When I fitted it I took the car straight away to Power Engineering and found a very significant improvement, but Ian Ball pointed out significant leaning out at high revs. Ian spoke directly at that time to the Volvo engineer in Gothenburg responsible for this work who confirmed that they were aware of this and would be supplying me with a set of larger injectors and a further revised ECU.

So, if Volvo's own engineers know of this leaning out problem on their own engines then I am, for one, and as allways doubtfull of others holding different views.

Don.Norchi.

>So, if Volvo's own engineers know of this leaning out problem
>on their own engines then I am, for one, and as allways
>doubtfull of others holding different views.
>
>Don.Norchi.
>

Would this be the same Volvo that couldn't tune the S60R to the specified 300 bhp because they got it wrong?

Furthermore, you have still not defined your definition of lean. So PE said you're running lean. But what do **you** think? You never give specific values.

Adam.

[Traduk]

Don,

What parameters\measurements were seen to conclude that leaning out was taking place.

This discussion cannot progress beyond opinion unless specifics are included.

I remember from many moons ago that you brought up the leaning out issue on your car and then a few weeks later commented on how a set of perfect plugs had been removed from your race car after an endurance race. I could never quite square how a vehicle that was running lean at high revs had been driven to racing max and the plugs showed no sign of the underlying leaning out. I would have expected the plugs to have been cooked to destruction.

I have a sneaky suspicion that this thread is about to go supernova!!!

I am going to take my plugs to the man from Del Monte. He says yes!

Adam.

[davebslater(uk)]

last thursday and friday , we finally managed to get our std T5 engine running and mapped on the dyno , with a GEMS engine managemment .

encountering various problems with the setup , ie dry sump , CBV , which were unknowns , unfortunately also the engine had a fair amount of blow by , chucking oil all over the dyno cell on one occasion - this restricted our high speed running .

Anyway we managed 152 bhp at 3400 rpm at 0.7 bar .30'c intake temp

i can confirm that the injectors are very marginal at the upper end of the power graph .

this was a trial run for the better engine with big rods etc .