Amsoil Products Discounts to VOC Members

[amsoil]

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[T240]

I would like to point out to our gentle readers that fully synthetic engine oils are most definitely NOT recommended for high mileage engines, no matter what amsoil may tell you!!

Another point is that a 0,5,10/w30 viscosity oils only cover you up to stable ambient air temperatures of 30c (86f). As stable ambient air temperatures in summer often go above this, such oils are not up to the task of adequately protecting your engine.

I'm sure some bright spark is going to try to shoot me down in flames, but thems the facts boys!!

Cheers,

T

[RoyMacDonald]

Originally Posted by T240

I would like to point out to our gentle readers that fully synthetic engine oils are most definitely NOT recommended for high mileage engines, no matter what amsoil may tell you!!

Another point is that a 0,5,10/w30 viscosity oils only cover you up to stable ambient air temperatures of 30c (86f). As stable ambient air temperatures in summer often go above this, such oils are not up to the task of adequately protecting your engine.

I'm sure some bright spark is going to try to shoot me down in flames, but thems the facts boys!!

Cheers,

T

So what it that huge radiator and fan doing on my Volvo when the weather gets hot? The engine operating temp. should be 100 C. and that gives a 70 C. difference for cooling. I've never actually heard my fan come on even on the hottest of days.

Bob is the Oil Guy
The engine is designed to run at 212 F at all external temperatures from Alaska to Florida. You can get in your car in Florida in September and drive zig-zag to Alaska arriving in November. The best thing for your engine would be that it was never turned off, you simply kept driving day and night. The oil thickness would be uniform, it would always be 10. In a perfect world the oil thickness would be 10 at all times and all temperatures.

The thickness of moving oil is measured in centiStokes or cS. Most engines want the oil viscosity to be around 10 cS at normal operating temperature. The really thick multi-grade oils have a viscosity of 20 cS at operating temperature. One is not twice as thick as the other, it is only 10 cS thicker.

As we increase the heat from 212 F to 302 F the most commonly recommended oil thins from 10 cS to 3 cS. The thicker oil drops from 20 cS to 4 cS. Note that in a very hot engine the difference between the two oils is now only 1 - 2 cS. In other words they have about the same thickness. There is little advantage to a thicker based oil as a 20W-50 at very high temperatures. No, the 4 cS oil is not twice as thick as the 2 or 3 cS oil. This difference is almost insignificant.

There is a huge advantage of using the thinner, 10W-30 at startup where 90 percent of the engine wear occurs. At 75 F the thicker oil has a viscosity in the range of 250 cS while the thinner oil has a viscosity of 100 cS. The thicker stuff is 150 cS thicker. This is a very big difference. I am using the 20W-50 as my thicker oil example here.

Check out the info on the weight of oils and temperatures here......http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/in...tpage&Itemid=1

[amsoil]

Any true synthetic is at least 3 time the film strength and therfore superior in protection than any mineral oil. Whilst it is true that the thicker the oil the higher the film strength this huge difference allows the use of thinner oils with advantage whilst still retaining a superior film strength. Modern American V8's now have synthetic 0w-20 or 5w-20 as standard. Now you cant even get a mineral oil to live at those grades even if stuffed with VI's (viscocity improvers)
I will catagorically state that no oil, whatever its composition or make, is a mechanic in a bottle. If your engine has worn guides or scored bores then a thinner oil will get past more easily and burn off; but if the engine is in good condition then a superior thinner oil can only assist. The milage doesn't matter. You must go back 50 years to the times when engines were worn out at 60,000 or 80,000 miles, recent engines can be expected to reach 6 figures easily with 200,000 or 300,000 miles easily envisaged. The problem generally is all the other parts wearing out and the desire for a newer model rather than engine wear. Most of this is entirely due to the advancements in lubrication technology. The days of GTX were over before some of todays drivers were born. (yes I know GTX is still about, I hunted for some to run in an engine I had just rebuilt as Amsoil doesn't make an oil poor enough to allow quick bedding in of the rings!).

[T240]

Clearly you neither of you take one iota of interest in the manufacturer's specifications, or the ambient air temp characteristics of oils.

In short, Roy, the 'bloody big fan' has sod all to do with the operating temp of your oil, period!

As for the bob is the oil guy, and amsoil claptrap - enough said.

If you think a w 30 oil is adequate to use in ambient air temps over 30c, then fine; but it doesn't make you right, very far from it!

Cheers,

T

p.s. Amsoil, as for dissing Castrol GTX, which is a part-synthetic oil that meets the highest requirements of manufacturers as diverse as Mercedes Benz, VAG group, and Fiat, it just shows not only your crass bad manners and ignorance, but a total disregard for a manufacturer of quality oils which will still be around when amsoil is long forgotten. End of!

[amsoil]

Castrol GTX came out in the 1960s and was a top oil with great reputation at that time.
Things have moved on, car engines no longer wear out in 60 or 80,000k as they did then. GTX was a good mineral oil (check this link to the Castrol spec sheet and note the top line where the word 'mineral' appears http://datasheets.bp.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/0/A3253B5887F3B6BB80257727005EAC2A/$file/BPXE-85KQQ4_0.pdf )
GTX 40 grade was better than the 30 grade which although still about has the lowest grading possible A1/B1 if I recall.
Better Castrol oils are Magnatec and better still Edge. My great regret with Castol is that they are capable of making very good oils, and Edge indeed was when it 1st came out, but they always seem to cheapen the range when they have established a name or reputation. There are some grades of Edge that are true full synthetics but there are those that are not. The situation is worse with Magnatec. I deal with oils and cannot tell you which grades of Castrol, Edge , Magnatec or whatever are real synthetic, hydro cracked mineral oils (which Castrol won a Court battle with Mobil to call 'synthetic') or part synthetic , semi synthetic , made with the benifit of synthetic technology etc.
I just simply don't know what all this really means and I repeat I deal in oil.
So please tell me what 'Part synthetic' is or Semi Synthetic means!
The public is being confused and conned by the Multi National oil companies and just don't know whats what or what they are actually buying.
Dissing Castrol GTX? It had a reputation 2nd to none but things move on and a lot has changed in the last 44 years.
I was looking for a good mineral oil to run in (bed in ) the rings on a 50K race engine , and thats GBP not miles, and so I hunted out some GTX, It did the job and let the rings wear in and so I then dumped it so it wouldn't allow the rings to also wear out. Replacing it with Amsoil like the car has had since winning the Miami GP in the 80's.

[RoyMacDonald]

Originally Posted by T240

Clearly you neither of you take one iota of interest in the manufacturer's specifications, or the ambient air temp characteristics of oils.

In short, Roy, the 'bloody big fan' has sod all to do with the operating temp of your oil, period!

As for the bob is the oil guy, and amsoil claptrap - enough said.

If you think a w 30 oil is adequate to use in ambient air temps over 30c, then fine; but it doesn't make you right, very far from it!

Cheers,

T

p.s. Amsoil, as for dissing Castrol GTX, which is a part-synthetic oil that meets the highest requirements of manufacturers as diverse as Mercedes Benz, VAG group, and Fiat, it just shows not only your crass bad manners and ignorance, but a total disregard for a manufacturer of quality oils which will still be around when amsoil is long forgotten. End of!

Any fool can say something is wrong when they don't back their statments up with facts. So where are yours?

[T240]

Originally Posted by amsoil

Castrol GTX came out in the 1960s and was a top oil with great reputation at that time.
Things have moved on, car engines no longer wear out in 60 or 80,000k as they did then. GTX was a good mineral oil (check this link to the Castrol spec sheet and note the top line where the word 'mineral' appears http://datasheets.bp.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/0/A3253B5887F3B6BB80257727005EAC2A/$file/BPXE-85KQQ4_0.pdf )
GTX 40 grade was better than the 30 grade which although still about has the lowest grading possible A1/B1 if I recall.
Better Castrol oils are Magnatec and better still Edge. My great regret with Castol is that they are capable of making very good oils, and Edge indeed was when it 1st came out, but they always seem to cheapen the range when they have established a name or reputation. There are some grades of Edge that are true full synthetics but there are those that are not. The situation is worse with Magnatec. I deal with oils and cannot tell you which grades of Castrol, Edge , Magnatec or whatever are real synthetic, hydro cracked mineral oils (which Castrol won a Court battle with Mobil to call 'synthetic') or part synthetic , semi synthetic , made with the benifit of synthetic technology etc.
I just simply don't know what all this really means and I repeat I deal in oil.
So please tell me what 'Part synthetic' is or Semi Synthetic means!
The public is being confused and conned by the Multi National oil companies and just don't know whats what or what they are actually buying.
Dissing Castrol GTX? It had a reputation 2nd to none but things move on and a lot has changed in the last 44 years.
I was looking for a good mineral oil to run in (bed in ) the rings on a 50K race engine , and thats GBP not miles, and so I hunted out some GTX, It did the job and let the rings wear in and so I then dumped it so it wouldn't allow the rings to also wear out. Replacing it with Amsoil like the car has had since winning the Miami GP in the 80's.

Hello,

I haven't the specs to hand, but somewhere I have the details of what part-synthetic actually means (I do know it is the same as semi-synthetic, but Castrol choose to use 'Part' instead for marketing purposes, I believe).
I do agree that the major oil companies are playing mind games with the public over what their oil is, or isn't to some degree - again, a large part of it is, yet again, marketing strategy, as I'm sure you're aware. In some part, it resembles the fiasco over what Volvo Manual Transmission oil actually is. Such was the confusion there that I've even heard of people running a 20 weight engine oil in their manual transmission!!

As for GTX, it was indeed an excellent mineral oil as you acknowledge, but GTX now is little more than a slightly cheaper version of Magnatec, and is part-synthetic as per the latter. This is a recent development that appears to be Castrol rationalizing their range. The new GTX is SAE 10W-40; API SL/CF; ACEA A3/B4. It also has the VW 501/01 and 501 00 approval, and MB 229.1 and FIAT 9.55535.D2 approvals. So, an ideal oil for engines up to around 2001 model year, and unlike a W30 is easily capable of looking after the engine in high summer temperatures.
The final mineral oil version of GTX met the same A3/B4 spec, so wasn't a poor oil either.

My personal choice for such an engine would be 10w-40 part-synthetic Edge, or Magnatec, or Mobil semi-synth. For a performance tuned engine, that's another matter; but you still need a w-40 for high summer use.

Cheers,

T

Addendum, GTX also apparently now exceeds the SM standard laid down in Nov. 2004; which is the highest rating. Also, the UK website, quite inexplicably, is not wholly up to date with regard to the tech spec sheets, nor even the fact that the new GTX is indeed part-synth! The US one on the other hand, from a cursory glance, appears to be, thought the product names do not correspond exactly. What did you say about confusion?!!!

p.s. Roy, I am No fool! I suggest you try reading something other than the ramblings of so-called experts like bob is the oil guy. You might actually learn something! It is a FACT that a w30 engine oil no matter who produces it, is emphatically NOT capable of protecting your engine in stable ambient air temps above 30c/86f (i.e. high summer). End of!

[amsoil]

Given that Castrol successfully got a court judgement which allows a hydro cracked mineral oil to be called 'synthetic' and that the Multi Nationals have different oil blends in different countries often called the same (ie Mobil 1 is different in the USA to the UK which is different the Mobil 1 in Germany etc) you can see why different sites might have different spec for apparently the same products. When you then get into the murky world of semi and part synthetic you could end up with a product 99% mineral and 1 % hydro cracked mineral called either part or semi synthetic with a price hike to match. Call me sceptical perhaps but when exactly the same labelling could be used on a 50 50 mixture of real synthetic and mineral I am sure you can see the problem and which way a multi national might be inclined to lean to maximise its profits. Of course thinking that 'synthetic' and mineral are mixed together may actually be off the mark, How about rushing volume through the cracker so that only some of the mineral is actually 'converted to ''synthetic'' '. Here you do have a mass produced cheap semi/ part synthetic (legally defined that is, a chemist would take issue with it) produced almost as cheaply as an old mineral oil yet capable of being sold for at least twice as much. No wonder only about 5% of the multi national sales are actual synthetic oils. The real money is in selling semis, whatever they are or this term really means. They certainly are not benevolent enough to make you the very best oils for your car, there is simply not enough money/ profit in it.
Synthetics the best oils available, even Castrol recommends a 5w-30 for severe use in all climates
'
Engine Oil Castrol Edge, SAE 5W-30
API* 5W-30 - An advanced proprietary formula that provides performance and protection in extreme conditions such as towing, hauling, high and low temperatures, rapid acceleration and stop and go traffic. '

I was actually a bit surprised they didn't recommend a 20 grade here , but then again a 20 grade can be more costly to produce as/and the quality must be higher.
Castrol do recommend a 5w-20 on a modern Mustang in all conditions however.

[T240]

I couldn't argue with that.

That NO oil company is a philanthropic oganization is a given.

As regards Castrol's sites, the Uk one is a bloody mess, ALL the engine oils are referred to as GTX something or other, and a good number of the ones listed are obsolete (no longer made) and have been for a long time.

Oil specs, standards (and availability) are as you say variable by market, and not always logically so - Castrol TAF-X (fully synthetic transmission oil) isn't officially available in the UK; yet it's the standard transmission oil for cars such as the Lotus Esprit, a whole host of Renaults using the same transaxle, and many more besides!

As regards using w-30 oils in high ambient temps. You may remember MB went through a phase of doing so, and it cost them a fortune in warranty claims. And really, if you have more than 50,000 plus on the clock sans rebuild, fully synthetic of any kidney is a no no for any engine - which you more or less acknowledged previously. The idea of using even lower w-20 grades in high ambient temps is certain engine suicide and no mistake. A monograde SAE 30 would hack it up to 40C/104f, (SAE 40 higher still) but couldn't handle the low end running out of puff at 0c/32f.

As regards 'getting what you pay for' or what you think you're paying for, only having samples independently analysed would prove anything - and who's likely to instigate that? Not an oil company for sure!

Cheers,

T

Addendum: 5w-30 Edge is NOT recommended for useage as you said. I would suggest reading the correct product data sheet, not the general overview. Also, I wouldn't put any store in any recommendations from Castrol or ANY oil site. Very many of them are ludicrous beyond the point of abject stupidity - including the idea of using a w-20 oil in 'all conditions'! If you don't believe that, try running that Mustang thru the Arizona desert in summer - and do remember the auto club number and your mobile for when the engine seizes!
Having perused the Castrol site, where a 5w-30 is 'recommended' for the 4.0 6 cyl Mustang, one must assume it is there by mistake, as recommendation for the 4.6 6 cyl is a 5w-20.
Patently some anomaly there, and clearly both wrong as no oil of either viscocity can adequately protect an engine in high ambient air temps; not because I say so, but because no matter how much technology you throw at the problem, you cannot make a w-20 or w-30 which will protect an engine at high ambient air temps ). Interestingly, the same site recommends for the V8 Mustang a 5w-50 which actually makes sense!

The problem with the Castrol website appears to be with the temperature option not being avilable for all vehicles. Were you to put in the details for a Triumph TR7 for instance, you will find if you check the -4 to 61 (farenheit) option, it comes up with a logical recommendation of a 10w-30 oil. Similarly, if you check over 32 (centrigade) it again, logically, comes up with 20w-50. They do, of course make a point of plugging 'Edge' as the first option in some cases, but then they would - it costs most, even if it's not really ideal for the said application!