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New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

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Old Apr 11th, 2021, 11:17   #2411
john.wigley
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Many thanks John,

... but I'm not going to be able to strip the mains with the engine still in the car and the gearbox attached I don't think (unless I've jumped to a wrong conclusion about the construction of Volvo motors?). That then would imply only the first method: taking the engine out and doing the work on the bench (so I might as well change the crank seals as well) was possible - wouldn't it?

I'll have a look at the BofH this afternoon to make sure I've understood that correctly. My concern is that a one day refresh job then becomes a week long engine out task, and if I do that I might as well ship the engine off to Northampton to have it rebuilt. Then the RB project starts becoming a bit more than it is now.

This is exactly why I'm asking about this now - many thanks.

Alan
Yes, that would require engine removal, Alan, but why else did you buy that very nice new engine hoist of yours?!

My thinking was that if you are going to the time and expense of stripping and rebuilding the engine to that extent, it might make sense to do the mains while you are in there, rather than have to do it all again in a few years time if they should begin to rumble. But, then again, you may enjoy doing just that, and I have no wish to rob you of that pleasure!!

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Old Apr 11th, 2021, 11:24   #2412
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Yes, that would require engine removal, Alan, but why else did you buy that very nice new engine hoist of yours?!

My thinking was that if you are going to the time and expense of stripping and rebuilding the engine to that extent, it might make sense to do the mains while you are in there, rather than have to do it all again in a few years time if they should begin to rumble. But, then again, you may enjoy doing just that, and I have no wish to rob you of that pleasure!!

Regards, John.
You have a really good point there John - I might want to save a few jobs for later with the RB, it is that sort of project!

Many thanks,

Alan
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Old Apr 11th, 2021, 12:04   #2413
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Sounds like a good plan Alan but i think you may be better off lifting the engine and box out as one unit. There's only one mount at the back of the box to support it while the engine is out and the only way to remove the box separately is from underneath. It's not easy and neither is replacement.

I would suggest the following method :

Remove the bonnet. Yes i know they can be set vertical for better access but that won't work with the next step. Also remove the radiator, slam panel (or as much of it as possible from the top of the rad) and grille.

Jack the rear of the car as high as you can safely get it on axle stands. Remove the prop shaft and unbolt the gearbox rear mount.

Leaving the back end up, disconnect electrics, fuel lines etc from the engine and remove the nuts from the engine mounts.

Sling the engine and box, if necessary using a load-leveller. Roll the hoist in and lift towards the back of the engine so the engine/box combo is as near parallel to the floor as possible.

Once clear of the mounts (and all other things perhaps forgotten) roll the hoist away from the front of the car, lifting the hoist as needed so the engine/box clears the front of the car.

Once the engine is out, it will be much easier to remove the sump, head, pistons, big ends, mains etc and when refitting, to use Plastigage to confirm the new shells are the right size and/or adjust the shells. The time saving involved in doing it this way will be more than the time saved by trying to do it in situ.

Refitting the box to the engine before refitting will also be much easier, getting the torque converter to engage in the oil pump drive in the box and turn the TC while aligning the bellhousing with the box laying on your chest isn't easy!
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Old Apr 11th, 2021, 14:58   #2414
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Sounds like a good plan Alan but i think you may be better off lifting the engine and box out as one unit. There's only one mount at the back of the box to support it while the engine is out and the only way to remove the box separately is from underneath. It's not easy and neither is replacement.

I would suggest the following method :

Remove the bonnet. Yes i know they can be set vertical for better access but that won't work with the next step. Also remove the radiator, slam panel (or as much of it as possible from the top of the rad) and grille.

Jack the rear of the car as high as you can safely get it on axle stands. Remove the prop shaft and unbolt the gearbox rear mount.

Leaving the back end up, disconnect electrics, fuel lines etc from the engine and remove the nuts from the engine mounts.

Sling the engine and box, if necessary using a load-leveller. Roll the hoist in and lift towards the back of the engine so the engine/box combo is as near parallel to the floor as possible.

Once clear of the mounts (and all other things perhaps forgotten) roll the hoist away from the front of the car, lifting the hoist as needed so the engine/box clears the front of the car.

Once the engine is out, it will be much easier to remove the sump, head, pistons, big ends, mains etc and when refitting, to use Plastigage to confirm the new shells are the right size and/or adjust the shells. The time saving involved in doing it this way will be more than the time saved by trying to do it in situ.

Refitting the box to the engine before refitting will also be much easier, getting the torque converter to engage in the oil pump drive in the box and turn the TC while aligning the bellhousing with the box laying on your chest isn't easy!
As always Dave, many thanks for the excellent advice.

The question wasn't really about how to take the engine, or engine and gearbox out... I have the space and tools to do the job here, and I could do it that way if I wanted to. The question is whether I want this to be a one day refresh, there being nothing much wrong with the RB, or whether I want to rebuild the motor.

I notice the BofH recommends removing the auto box from underneath first - because of its weight, but I have heard others (Luke for instance) recommend lifting the engine and gearbox out together; I'd be comfortable undertaking either with the set up I have here.

If I'm going to bother taking the motor out then I think this becomes a week long job (as I said to John above) where the rings, big ends, mains, gaskets and seals all get done - in which case perhaps I get Knight Engine Services to do a professional rebuild - but then the nature of the project changes a bit.

What I have to decide (and I have at least a year to do so) is whether to do a quick one-day refresh of standard size rings and big end shells when I service the RB next spring, or otherwise do I rebuild the engine... and if I do that do I re-paint the engine bay while the lump is out... and perhaps I fit the AW71L auto box... and maybe refurbish the PAS whilst access is good... and change the alternator... and have the carburettor ultra-sonically cleaned... and fit a tubular exhaust header... and where do I call a halt?

This is exactly the reason I have asked the question amongst this group of like-minded friends now, rather than not be clear about what I'm trying to achieve when the car is apart in a year's time.

If this was a bike (where most of my previous experience lies) - I'd think nothing of pulling off the head and barrels and swapping the rings as a sensible refresh. On a 2 stroke that would be a couple of hours work, on a 4 stroke it might take a day; both would be sensible things to do for a small effort. I'm now trying to work out whether in car terms a simple refresh like that as part of an annual service would be worthwhile. If the BofH is right and access to the big ends (and therefore the rings) is easy via the sump then that only looks like a day's work to me, and would bring about some useful benefits without the full 9 yards of an engine-out rebuild.

I'm really pleased I asked this question. At the moment I'm tending towards the one day/£100 option (access via the sump pan) rather than the one week/£1000 refurbishment. I've far from decided though - in fact Dan (my son, aged 16) and I have just talked through this very point (I'm so pleased he is taking an interest). My inclination is mainly due to my bike background where light refreshes of the top end would be common.

Many thanks :-)

Alan
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Old Apr 11th, 2021, 15:22   #2415
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As always Dave, many thanks for the excellent advice.

The question wasn't really about how to take the engine, or engine and gearbox out... I have the space and tools to do the job here, and I could do it that way if I wanted to. The question is whether I want this to be a one day refresh, there being nothing much wrong with the RB, or whether I want to rebuild the motor.

I notice the BofH recommends removing the auto box from underneath first - because of its weight, but I have heard others (Luke for instance) recommend lifting the engine and gearbox out together; I'd be comfortable undertaking either with the set up I have here.

If I'm going to bother taking the motor out then I think this becomes a week long job (as I said to John above) where the rings, big ends, mains, gaskets and seals all get done - in which case perhaps I get Knight Engine Services to do a professional rebuild - but then the nature of the project changes a bit.

What I have to decide (and I have at least a year to do so) is whether to do a quick one-day refresh of standard size rings and big end shells when I service the RB next spring, or otherwise do I rebuild the engine... and if I do that do I re-paint the engine bay while the lump is out... and perhaps I fit the AW71L auto box... and maybe refurbish the PAS whilst access is good... and change the alternator... and have the carburettor ultra-sonically cleaned... and fit a tubular exhaust header... and where do I call a halt?

This is exactly the reason I have asked the question amongst this group of like-minded friends now, rather than not be clear about what I'm trying to achieve when the car is apart in a year's time.

If this was a bike (where most of my previous expertise lies) - I'd think nothing of pulling off the head and barrels and swapping the rings as a sensible refresh. On a 2 stroke that would be a couple of hours work, on a 4 stroke it might take a day; both would be sensible things to do for a small effort. I'm now trying to work out whether in car terms a simple refresh like that as part of an annual service would be worthwhile. If the BofH is right and access to the big ends (and therefore the rings) is easy via the sump then that only looks like a day's work to me, and would bring about some useful benefits without the full 9 yards of an engine-out rebuild.

I'm really pleased I asked this question. At the moment I'm tending towards the one day/£100 option (access via the sump pan) rather than the one week/£1000 refurbishment. I've far from decided though - in fact Dan (my son, aged 16) and I have just talked through this very point (I'm so pleased he is taking an interest). My inclination is mainly due to my bike background where light refreshes of the top end would be common.

Many thanks :-)

Alan
Something you haven't mentioned Alan is whether you've considered the fact that new standard size shells, rings etc may not be right for the engine and are going to hone the cylinders when you replace the rings? Also what if you get part way through the "one day refresh" and find things are out of tolerance? The engine would likely have to still come out then and you also mentioned changing the rear crank oil seal - gearbox needs to be disconnected from the engine to do that.

I've also seen someone do the one-day refresh on a 240 leaving the engine in the car. Took him nearly 2 weeks. All that time the car was up on big axle stands (not commercially available back then, he'd got a colleague to make some up i believe) and by the time he was finished the whole lot was looking wobbly.

I know you are also seeing the "how far do i go with this job" scenario but i think if you decide on set limits (subject to change if you find something that really does need immediate attention) of exactly what you're going to do.

However when all is said and done, it's your choice of how you attack things. Regardless of whether you go for the one day refresh or engine out option, allow double the amount of time you think it will take, there will almost certainly be things that crop up that need more thought and/or parts but the decider for me would be the amount of hassle it is to line up a box on an engine (or vice versa) when one unit is already in the car. It really is so much easier to unite (or split) them outside the car then simply line up three mounting points rather than try to line up the mounting points, the torque covnerter on the flywheel/driveplate, getting the gearbox to slide onto the engine while maintaining the mounting points in position.
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Old Apr 11th, 2021, 16:29   #2416
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Alan, I sense that you have the 'bit between your teeth' on this one, but I'm inclined to agree with 'L.S.' in his more cautionary approach. As a rule, car engines, on account of, as you said yourself, their lower RPM and more efficient cooling and lubrication systems than their motor-cycle equivalents, do not normally require a bottom end refresh as frequently as I suspect do bikes.

Whilst I'm also very much in favour of preventative maintenance, a case might also be made for 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'*. On that basis, it could indeed make sense just to replace the rings and shells and leave the big job until later.

I don't have your degree of experience with bikes, being limited mainly to mopeds, scooters and other low capacity machines like the BSA Bantam, but I can remember a time when the need for a top-end overhaul every 10,000 miles was not unusual, with a rebore, new pistons, reground crank and new big ends and mains at 30. Certain cars, like the Riley, didn't even use shells (although a conversion kit was available) but used fragile white metal bearings which required recasting and line-boring.

Regards, John.

*As an aside, a 'bus operator that I knew took preventative maintenance to a whole new level. As part of a national policy, they introduced an 'Annual' service, a requirement of which was to routinely replace all of the vehicle's coolant hoses. Accordingly, OE hoses, which might be expected to last for at least three years, were cut off vehicles - some little more than a year old.

These were replaced with after market items of an inferior quality (to save money (!)) which were found to have a MTBF of 10 months! It was not unknown for one to fail in service, only to be replaced, and cut off and renewed again, a couple of months later, when the vehicle came in for it's 'Annual'. J.
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Last edited by john.wigley; Apr 11th, 2021 at 16:34. Reason: Should have read 'inferior' and not 'interior'!
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Old Apr 11th, 2021, 17:19   #2417
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Something you haven't mentioned Alan is whether you've considered the fact that new standard size shells, rings etc may not be right for the engine and are going to hone the cylinders when you replace the rings? Also what if you get part way through the "one day refresh" and find things are out of tolerance? The engine would likely have to still come out then and you also mentioned changing the rear crank oil seal - gearbox needs to be disconnected from the engine to do that.

I've also seen someone do the one-day refresh on a 240 leaving the engine in the car. Took him nearly 2 weeks. All that time the car was up on big axle stands (not commercially available back then, he'd got a colleague to make some up i believe) and by the time he was finished the whole lot was looking wobbly.

I know you are also seeing the "how far do i go with this job" scenario but i think if you decide on set limits (subject to change if you find something that really does need immediate attention) of exactly what you're going to do.

However when all is said and done, it's your choice of how you attack things. Regardless of whether you go for the one day refresh or engine out option, allow double the amount of time you think it will take, there will almost certainly be things that crop up that need more thought and/or parts but the decider for me would be the amount of hassle it is to line up a box on an engine (or vice versa) when one unit is already in the car. It really is so much easier to unite (or split) them outside the car then simply line up three mounting points rather than try to line up the mounting points, the torque covnerter on the flywheel/driveplate, getting the gearbox to slide onto the engine while maintaining the mounting points in position.
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Alan, I sense that you have the 'bit between your teeth' on this one, but I'm inclined to agree with 'L.S.' in his more cautionary approach. As a rule, car engines, on account of, as you said yourself, their lower RPM and more efficient cooling and lubrication systems than their motor-cycle equivalents, do not normally require a bottom end refresh as frequently as I suspect do bikes.

Whilst I'm also very much in favour of preventative maintenance, a case might also be made for 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'*. On that basis, it could indeed make sense just to replace the rings and shells and leave the big job until later.

I don't have your degree of experience with bikes, being limited mainly to mopeds, scooters and other low capacity machines like the BSA Bantam, but I can remember a time when the need for a top-end overhaul every 10,000 miles was not unusual, with a rebore, new pistons, reground crank and new big ends and mains at 30. Certain cars, like the Riley, didn't even use shells (although a conversion kit was available) but used fragile white metal bearings which required recasting and line-boring.

Regards, John.

*As an aside, a 'bus operator that I knew took preventative maintenance to a whole new level. As part of a national policy, they introduced an 'Annual' service, a requirement of which was to routinely replace all of the vehicle's coolant hoses. Accordingly, OE hoses, which might be expected to last for at least three years, were cut off vehicles - some little more than a year old.

These were replaced with after market items of an inferior quality (to save money (!)) which were found to have a MTBF of 10 months! It was not unknown for one to fail in service, only to be replaced, and cut off and renewed again, a couple of months later, when the vehicle came in for it's 'Annual'. J.
Many thanks Dave and John,

I think I had covered all those eventualities in my above Dave. If the work turns out to be more extensive after I've pulled out the pistons I would have lost nothing: the lump would still have to come out anyway. Also I'd mentioned honing the bores in situ (easy on bikes where the barrels come off, but should be possible with the bottom and top of the engine off) - and the rear seal will be done when I swap do the AW71L box job (as I said - probably spring 2023).

Jobs normally take longer than expected, but a one day job becoming a 2 day job wouldn't be much of an issue (but a one week job taking a fortnight would start getting in the way a bit). I'd be doing some of this during the service anyway: dropping the oil and coolant, checking the valve clearances...

Whichever way there will be things that crop up, that is just the nature of older motor cars :-)

You are right that car engines last much longer than do bikes John - they run much faster and are worse cooled and lubricated as you say. I could just leave the RB until something actually goes wrong (like oil consumption goes up, or it starts smoking), there is nothing wrong at the moment. The BofH gives the impression that access via the sump pan is pretty easy - but as I said to Dave above, if it doesn't work out I've lost not a great deal and could still continue on to pull the motor out.

... I'm still very much considering the options. A bit depends on what I think of the AW71L job. I'll collect the auto box from Luke in the coming weeks and will have a better idea about how much work it will be (and the best way of doing it).

:-)
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Old Apr 11th, 2021, 17:45   #2418
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Sorry Alan, i missed the bit about honing the bores - or forgot by the time i put my response together!

John has thrown another option into the mix that i think might be a better one long term. I know a couple of times you've mentioned perhaps getting a B23/230 engine to improve the response if the B21 struggles slightly with the OD ratio on the AW71L so i'd suggest a slightly different course of action, largely based on Johns suggestion.

Leave the engine as it is for now, except replacing the rear crank oil seal as part of the gearbox upgrade.

See how it performs with the new box and then you can decide on whether to refurb the existing engine or get a replacement B23/230 and refurb that before fitting. In some ways refurbing a bigger engine would make the most of your 3 for refurb as you'd be doing it to the desired bigger unit rather than the existing one and then maybe still want to change for a bigger one.

Just another metaphorical spanner in the works of deciding!
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Old Apr 12th, 2021, 10:01   #2419
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Default Winter Tyres

I've decided spring is here to stay to I changed the Skoda's wheels back to the Trinity alloys with summer tyres yesterday.

I'm convinced it really does pay to remove the road wheels and have a good check around twice per year; the bolts were so so tight on the driver's side front wheel that I had to use my 4' fence post extension to undo them. If that had happened by the roadside I'd have been stuck.



The recently powder coated original wheels and tyres look really good, particularly after not having to withstand the winter weather. The steel wheels got a good clean with Screwfix degreaser and the pressure washer. I checked the tread depth and found I still have 4.5mm on all 4, so I'll be able to squeeze another winter's use out of the Yokohama tyres, which was an unexpected bonus.

:-)
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Old Apr 12th, 2021, 11:33   #2420
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I hope you're right about spring being finally here Alan!

Had a snowstorm yesterday followed an hour or so later with a hailstorm which i was out in with the hound. Walkies was abruptly cut short!

Good news on getting another season out of your snow tyres, they're about half way worn at the moment so in theory you have as many seasons again as you've already done with them.

That said, when the tread gets lower, they won't be so effective at dispersing snow and slush so in practice maybe just one more season..................
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