Seriously?

[Moomoo]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Alan - could you please explain to me in simple terms, the fascination with watches? I know things like Omega, Longines, Breitling, Rolex are always sought after and valuable but why?

I know many of them are hand-crafted to exacting standards and the original purchaser pays for that craftsmanship but why do they hold (and often increase) their value as they become older?

I generally use my phone for the time but if i want/need to wear a watch, i have a Chinese (?) watch branded "Naviforce". In terms of looks it's reminiscent of a Rolex (and a few people have made that mistake) Submariner i think the model is but it keeps excellent time (movement by Epson of Japan, better known for printers!), is waterproof (allegedly) and although being a bit on the heavy side, sits nicely on my wrist and looks relatively pleasing. Cost me ~£15 several years ago on fleabay plus a new pair of batteries a couple of years back.

I'm hoping you can bridge the gap between my knowledge and yours, even if only at a simplistic level here.

As for Volvos being an acquired taste, that is very true. I've also come across many people for whom Volvo are very much a Marmite brand. That said, it's like anything, if you find a brand you like and it works for you, you tend to stick with it. I've always felt people who don't have brand loyalty tend to be "flaky" in other areas of their lives as well.

What saddens me somewhat are those members of the younger generation that are buying them, not to restore to original or even "good, used but a few years old" condition but to completely change them so it's really only the shell that remains original.
There are others who do buy them to appreciate them for what they are and usually restore to at least "good, used but a few years old" if not better but there are so many other older cars with similar basic credentials (rear wheel drive tends to be prominent on the wish-list) that would possibly be better candidates for the modifications many add to their old Volvos.

I can’t speak for others but the watches I used to collect,(since I was thirteen), were mainly military. They were very well engineered, they had to be because timed events need to be as synchronised, as much as possible.

It’s funny, I bought an unissued Jaeger le Coultre, RAF WW2 pilots watch in the sixties for £15, from Scientific and Technical Supplies, in the Exchange and Mart.

Two years ago, it sold for £2,600. I just looked upon as a liability that I would not invest in further , were it to go wrong. An expensive job!
The same for a Hanhart, Luftwaffa pilot’s chronograph.

I was attracted by the engineering, anything well designed and constructed, old cameras, gauges , they all have that witchcraft of the genius about them.

Admiration for a patience of purpose I do not possess!👏🧐

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Alan - could you please explain to me in simple terms, the fascination with watches? I know things like Omega, Longines, Breitling, Rolex are always sought after and valuable but why?

I know many of them are hand-crafted to exacting standards and the original purchaser pays for that craftsmanship but why do they hold (and often increase) their value as they become older?

I generally use my phone for the time but if i want/need to wear a watch, i have a Chinese (?) watch branded "Naviforce". In terms of looks it's reminiscent of a Rolex (and a few people have made that mistake) Submariner i think the model is but it keeps excellent time (movement by Epson of Japan, better known for printers!), is waterproof (allegedly) and although being a bit on the heavy side, sits nicely on my wrist and looks relatively pleasing. Cost me ~£15 several years ago on fleabay plus a new pair of batteries a couple of years back.

I'm hoping you can bridge the gap between my knowledge and yours, even if only at a simplistic level here.

As for Volvos being an acquired taste, that is very true. I've also come across many people for whom Volvo are very much a Marmite brand. That said, it's like anything, if you find a brand you like and it works for you, you tend to stick with it. I've always felt people who don't have brand loyalty tend to be "flaky" in other areas of their lives as well.

What saddens me somewhat are those members of the younger generation that are buying them, not to restore to original or even "good, used but a few years old" condition but to completely change them so it's really only the shell that remains original.
There are others who do buy them to appreciate them for what they are and usually restore to at least "good, used but a few years old" if not better but there are so many other older cars with similar basic credentials (rear wheel drive tends to be prominent on the wish-list) that would possibly be better candidates for the modifications many add to their old Volvos.

It is simple Dave: just supply and demand - and of course human nature wanting things that other people desire. Watches are no different to any other items in this respect: the supply of Omega watches is strictly limited, each is numbered and each series is limited. The demand side is huge: very many people covet an Omega (or other upmarket brand), hence they maintain a high price and almost always appreciate - I bought Dan his 007 for about £4,000, it would sell for about £7,500 today; my Speedmaster was about £2,000 when I bought it (years ago) - it would be worth around £4,500 now.

As far as timepieces go our Omegas aren't particularly accurate - I have about a dozen watches I suppose (Dan probably about the same), most would be quartz type, all of which would be much more accurate than any mechanical self-winder like the Speedmaster. This has nothing to do with the manufacturer, it is just the technology. I'd say my Omega is no more accurate, comfortable, usable or smart than my Seiko mechanical self winder - but that cost me about £80 (in the USA I think) and doesn't really appreciate. So, the quality of manufacture is about the same on an £80 watch and a £4,500 watch - the difference is supply - Seiko turns out its very good self-winders by the million, they don't come individually numbered in a nice red box with certificates of authenticity.

Motor cars are no different. If there is high demand for a model and it is in short supply then the price will go up. I'd say that 1980s Volvos were every bit as well designed and built as Fords from the same era, but a Cortina might sell for 4 times as much as a 240. The motor cars would have had a similar price when new. The only difference is demand; people just aren't as desirous of old Volvos.

You talked a bit about modifying older motor cars. I can't really see the point of that - it strikes me that it would be a preferable to buy a better car in the first place than spend good money lowering suspension, fitting very expensive wheels and so on to cooking motor cars. At the same time I can't see much point in originality for the sake of it: there is nothing wrong with fitting modern tyres, lights and solid-state electrical components to old motor cars.

:-)

[ilmiont]

Here's an interesting one from Autotrader in my inbox this morning:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...02210080536413

A 1986 GLE auto saloon, being advertised by a Volvo dealer for £9,995 with 117k miles.

The ad claims "next MOT due 12/10/2023", but the DVSA shows it as expired on 13/10/2022 - nearly a week ago, I don't think that's just a delay in the system updating. So it hasn't actually been put in for a test yet.

Even better, the ad claims "last serviced on 24/10/2022" - has it come back from the future?

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

I can’t speak for others but the watches I used to collect,(since I was thirteen), were mainly military. They were very well engineered, they had to be because timed events need to be as synchronised, as much as possible.

It’s funny, I bought an unissued Jaeger le Coultre, RAF WW2 pilots watch in the sixties for £15, from Scientific and Technical Supplies, in the Exchange and Mart.

Two years ago, it sold for £2,600. I just looked upon as a liability that I would not invest in further , were it to go wrong. An expensive job!
The same for a Hanhart, Luftwaffa pilot’s chronograph.

I was attracted by the engineering, anything well designed and constructed, old cameras, gauges , they all have that witchcraft of the genius about them.

Admiration for a patience of purpose I do not possess!👏🧐

There is a little bit of value in the 'interesting engineering' category Andrew - but sadly not a huge amount.

I may have mentioned previously I'm a surveyor by profession; in my vocation we scrapped generation after generation of beautifully made mechanical/optical instruments in favour of increasingly electronic solutions as each became obsolete. Machines that cost us tens of thousands and had been the very zenith of the technology of their day quickly became scrap, regardless of their engineering beauty.

Survey instruments were not unusual in this respect, the same happened everywhere. Virtually all piston engined aircraft became obsolete almost overnight when jet engines became widely available, wet film cameras disappeared almost overnight, CRT (in TVs, instruments and so on) the same... the list goes on almost indefinitely.

Just the ramblings of an old man :-)

[Othen]

Originally Posted by ilmiont

Here's an interesting one from Autotrader in my inbox this morning:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...02210080536413

A 1986 GLE auto saloon, being advertised by a Volvo dealer for £9,995 with 117k miles.

The ad claims "next MOT due 12/10/2023", but the DVSA shows it as expired on 13/10/2022 - nearly a week ago, I don't think that's just a delay in the system updating. So it hasn't actually been put in for a test yet.

Even better, the ad claims "last serviced on 24/10/2022" - has it come back from the future?

... anyone trying to sell a 240 for 10 grand probably has to roll the same ad on from one year to another :-).

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

I can’t speak for others but the watches I used to collect,(since I was thirteen), were mainly military. They were very well engineered, they had to be because timed events need to be as synchronised, as much as possible.

It’s funny, I bought an unissued Jaeger le Coultre, RAF WW2 pilots watch in the sixties for £15, from Scientific and Technical Supplies, in the Exchange and Mart.

Two years ago, it sold for £2,600. I just looked upon as a liability that I would not invest in further , were it to go wrong. An expensive job!
The same for a Hanhart, Luftwaffa pilot’s chronograph.

I was attracted by the engineering, anything well designed and constructed, old cameras, gauges , they all have that witchcraft of the genius about them.

Admiration for a patience of purpose I do not possess!👏🧐

Originally Posted by Othen

It is simple Dave: just supply and demand - and of course human nature wanting things that other people desire. Watches are no different to any other items in this respect: the supply of Omega watches is strictly limited, each is numbered and each series is limited. The demand side is huge: very many people covet an Omega (or other upmarket brand), hence they maintain a high price and almost always appreciate - I bought Dan his 007 for about £4,000, it would sell for about £7,500 today; my Speedmaster was about £2,000 when I bought it (years ago) - it would be worth around £4,500 now.

As far as timepieces go our Omegas aren't particularly accurate - I have about a dozen watches I suppose (Dan probably about the same), most would be quartz type, all of which would be much more accurate than any mechanical self-winder like the Speedmaster. This has nothing to do with the manufacturer, it is just the technology. I'd say my Omega is no more accurate, comfortable, usable or smart than my Seiko mechanical self winder - but that cost me about £80 (in the USA I think) and doesn't really appreciate. So, the quality of manufacture is about the same on an £80 watch and a £4,500 watch - the difference is supply - Seiko turns out its very good self-winders by the million, they don't come individually numbered in a nice red box with certificates of authenticity.

Motor cars are no different. If there is high demand for a model and it is in short supply then the price will go up. I'd say that 1980s Volvos were every bit as well designed and built as Fords from the same era, but a Cortina might sell for 4 times as much as a 240. The motor cars would have had a similar price when new. The only difference is demand; people just aren't as desirous of old Volvos.

You talked a bit about modifying older motor cars. I can't really see the point of that - it strikes me that it would be a preferable to buy a better car in the first place than spend good money lowering suspension, very expensive wheels and so on to cooking motor cars. At the same time I can't see much point in originality for the sake of it: there is nothing wrong with fitting modern tyres, lights and solid-state electrical components to old motor cars.

:-)

Thanks both of you for such eloquent answers, i was hoping there was something i was missing but it seems as simple as supply and demand. Fortunately (or perhaps not for the owners) Reliant Robins aren't in great demand as the supply these days isn't healthy.

I agree that it's better to buy a car that was designed to go round corners at 130mph than modify an old 145 or similar to do the same, usually cheaper in the long run and more saleable when the owner decides they want something different.

As for fitting modern versions of older kit for better reliability, performance (i don't mean racing performance, i'm on about radio reception, sound quality etc for ICE, better lighting etc) and longevity, i'm all for that as well.

[Moomoo]

Originally Posted by Othen

There is a little bit of value in the 'interesting engineering' category Andrew - but sadly not a huge amount.

I may have mentioned previously I'm a surveyor by profession; in my vocation we scrapped generation after generation of beautifully made mechanical/optical instruments in favour of increasingly electronic solutions as each became obsolete. Machines that cost us tens of thousands and had been the very zenith of the technology of their day quickly became scrap, regardless of their engineering beauty.

Survey instruments were not unusual in this respect, the same happened everywhere. Virtually all piston engined aircraft became obsolete almost overnight when jet engines became widely available, wet film cameras disappeared almost overnight, CRT (in TVs, instruments and so on) the same... the list goes on almost indefinitely.

Just the ramblings of an old man :-)

Agreed Alan , I recently bought a 30s Siemens 16mm camera with a massive fps speed, great thing, £5.
As you say engineering counts for little in old gear. On Friday I saw the ultimate insult, an AVO meter turned into a LAMP!🤨

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by ilmiont

Here's an interesting one from Autotrader in my inbox this morning:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...02210080536413

A 1986 GLE auto saloon, being advertised by a Volvo dealer for £9,995 with 117k miles.

The ad claims "next MOT due 12/10/2023", but the DVSA shows it as expired on 13/10/2022 - nearly a week ago, I don't think that's just a delay in the system updating. So it hasn't actually been put in for a test yet.

Even better, the ad claims "last serviced on 24/10/2022" - has it come back from the future?

It's not a De L'Orean so it can't have come back from the future!

Can't help thinking the price is a bit steep, however the number plate reminded me of my first Rover 800, that was D859 SGO, an 820Si model. About 3 years ago, an 820Si in similar condition to that 240GLE (and would have been a similar market when new) sold on ebay for £9999 on an auction listing so i daresay that figure isn't too wildly out of the way, especially as the mileage is relatively low for the year.

Apropos the incongruency on the service and MoT dates, i suspect one is a typo and the other (MoT) is in the hope it would sell quickly and implying a new MoT on purchase. Whether i'm right or wrong i don't know but it's a plausible explanation.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

Agreed Alan , I recently bought a 30s Siemens 16mm camera with a massive fps speed, great thing, £5.
As you say engineering counts for little in old gear. On Friday I saw the ultimate insult, an AVO meter turned into a LAMP!🤨

It's ridiculous what they do on Find it, Fix it, Flog it! I've seen that episode many times and it always irks me to see an AVO meter turned into a lamp or bluetooth speaker (both have been done! ) on there.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

Agreed Alan , I recently bought a 30s Siemens 16mm camera with a massive fps speed, great thing, £5.
As you say engineering counts for little in old gear. On Friday I saw the ultimate insult, an AVO meter turned into a LAMP!🤨

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

It's ridiculous what they do on Find it, Fix it, Flog it! I've seen that episode many times and it always irks me to see an AVO meter turned into a lamp or bluetooth speaker (both have been done! ) on there.

As an electrician (retired) I'd love to agree, but what else would one do with an AVO meter - the instrument would have no commercial use whatsoever?

I sometimes wonder how many RR Merlin engines were scrapped for the price of the aluminium when Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancasters were suddenly overtaken by events in about 1950, or beautiful steam locomotives and static engines were broken for scrap when the diesel and electric age arrived. We can't keep everything - however wonderful the engineering was when it came out of the factory.

Sometimes one has to accept that stuff from the past just doesn't work well enough any more. You chaps may recall the radiogram I took out of the Barge:



... it was huge, heavy, had only two channels and the sound quality was rubbish. I little bit of me wanted to keep it, but common sense prevailed. The £15 retro-styled modern receiver that replaced it weighed perhaps 10% as much and was tiny in comparison:



... it has 4 channels and the sound quality is really good.

Perhaps one day I'll get the Volvo MDL radio/cassette player made into a lamp or a Bluetooth speaker - but there again perhaps I won't :-).

Alan