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760 V6…first drive - oil in coolant and no charging 😭

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Old Oct 10th, 2021, 21:06   #1
russwinchester
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Default 760 V6…first drive - oil in coolant and no charging 😭

So for those who have followed my story of 760 woe here is the next chapter! Now I have a running B280E V6 after issues at every turn, that now sounds rather good (after a fair amount of plugging exhaust holes!) So now I have a runner, I’ve done an oil and concentrated EG coolant change as per advice, and also a brake fluid flush…(which has resulted in me having to change blocked flexi hoses that were rusted solid; yet another nightmare job).

I’d just started to get excited about it again after hating the sight of it!

Before I did the oil and coolant change, the car was running fine, no oil in coolant. Now I’ve changed the fluids (after reverse flushing the system) I’m getting oil in the expansion tank. No coolant loss, no white exhaust smoke. I’ve driven it around local private roads prior to MOT and it drives well. Does anyone have any ideas or is it most likely that I’m looking at a head gasket?

The car also isn’t charging, no more than 12v across the battery. Is this most likely a duff alternator or do these cars have any other quirks that I don’t know about? Looks like a tricky job too, the belt runs on the v6 look…er…challenging 😭

Once again advice welcome before I decide what to do with it! 👍
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Old Oct 10th, 2021, 21:22   #2
miraz
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Originally Posted by russwinchester View Post
So for those who have followed my story of 760 woe here is the next chapter! Now I have a running B280E V6 after issues at every turn, that now sounds rather good (after a fair amount of plugging exhaust holes!) So now I have a runner, I’ve done an oil and concentrated EG coolant change as per advice, and also a brake fluid flush…(which has resulted in me having to change blocked flexi hoses that were rusted solid; yet another nightmare job).

I’d just started to get excited about it again after hating the sight of it!

Before I did the oil and coolant change, the car was running fine, no oil in coolant. Now I’ve changed the fluids (after reverse flushing the system) I’m getting oil in the expansion tank. No coolant loss, no white exhaust smoke. I’ve driven it around local private roads prior to MOT and it drives well. Does anyone have any ideas or is it most likely that I’m looking at a head gasket?

The car also isn’t charging, no more than 12v across the battery. Is this most likely a duff alternator or do these cars have any other quirks that I don’t know about? Looks like a tricky job too, the belt runs on the v6 look…er…challenging 😭

Once again advice welcome before I decide what to do with it! 👍

If the gearbox is automatic, check the color of the oil on the gearbox dipstick (if it is the color of coffee with milk, it is a symptom of mixing water with oil in the gearbox.
If the gasket under the head is different.
If there is no more water in the tank and no water is getting into the oil in the engine (the color of the oil is the same as in the box) then continue driving as there are no major symptoms.
Compression can sometimes get into the water system.
There will be air bubbles in the expansion tank.
As for charging the battery, it is a regulator or an alternator.
It should charge about 13.4-13.8 V.
I have made several such engines in Poland. Fun job because he does not have the entire engine block, only cylinder liners and an external engine block.
The gasket is just like the engine block.
Under each cylinder liner there are paper seals, which are used to adjust the height of the sleeve to the seal.
And fun in the contextual alignment of two timing chains.
I have all the documentation and knowledge. I will help if you need to.


If the oil in the engine is the same color in the automatic gearbox and there is no more water or oil in the engine or in the gearbox, the head gaskets may leak.
If the engine is running smoothly and it is driving well then do nothing but watch if it does not deepen.
Sometimes it does, but it is minimal oil consumption and will color the water in the cooling system.
With my second car, Peugeot 207 1.4 petrol, I have had it since the beginning and my wife drives it for 11 years and has 130,000 km.
There is always oil in the tank and nothing happens.
On the Lexus IS 200, each oil leaks in the 6 cylinder and continues to drive. This is their disadvantage.

Sorry for the styling but writing in English is not doing well.
I am a VOLVO mechanic in Dublin.

mirazwojnewry@gmail.com

Last edited by miraz; Oct 10th, 2021 at 21:36.
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Old Oct 10th, 2021, 21:22   #3
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My first thought re-oil in header tank was a blown engine oil cooler,but better to wait for those more knowledgeable on the V6 than I am.
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Old Oct 11th, 2021, 01:38   #4
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Originally Posted by russwinchester View Post
So for those who have followed my story of 760 woe here is the next chapter! Now I have a running B280E V6 after issues at every turn, that now sounds rather good (after a fair amount of plugging exhaust holes!) So now I have a runner, I’ve done an oil and concentrated EG coolant change as per advice, and also a brake fluid flush…(which has resulted in me having to change blocked flexi hoses that were rusted solid; yet another nightmare job).

I’d just started to get excited about it again after hating the sight of it!

Before I did the oil and coolant change, the car was running fine, no oil in coolant. Now I’ve changed the fluids (after reverse flushing the system) I’m getting oil in the expansion tank. No coolant loss, no white exhaust smoke. I’ve driven it around local private roads prior to MOT and it drives well. Does anyone have any ideas or is it most likely that I’m looking at a head gasket?

The car also isn’t charging, no more than 12v across the battery. Is this most likely a duff alternator or do these cars have any other quirks that I don’t know about? Looks like a tricky job too, the belt runs on the v6 look…er…challenging 😭

Once again advice welcome before I decide what to do with it! 👍
Asking what sounds like a stupid question Russ, are you sure there is oil in the expansion tank?

The reason i ask is because when a car has been laid up for a time, like yours has, it can produce a brown or grey scummy residue in the expansion tank or radiator (if a traditional cooling system) similar to the summy residue you get on tea or coffee in hard water areas. Even following a good reverse flush this can happen becuase not all of the sediment that causes it is got rid of first time round with a flush, simply because of the amount of build up.

The gearbox fluid should be a nice cherry red colour, if it's brown and smells burned, it needs changing but hang fire on that until you've got an MoT and/or bottomed this apparent oil in the coolant problem. It's near impossible for ATF to find its way into the cooling system because the cooling system is pressurised at a minimum of 16.5psi which overcomes the pressure of the ATF in the cooler which is negligible because it just flows (no pressure, just flow) through the heat exchanger and if fitted, the auxiliary ATF cooler.

I'm about to change the rad on mine (due to a leak) to a manual 940 rad and fit an external ATF cooler. Hoping to do a "words and pics" write up on my thread, when i do i'll post a link to it here if that would be helpful, just waiting for a few small items i need to do all the bits on it.

The only other possibility of oil/water interchange (unless the HG has failed but given what you say, it sounds doubtful) is the engine oil cooler. There the engine oil pressure is higher than the coolant pressure so it's a possibility.



That's the engine oil cooler, the seals are still available from Volvo (two square profile "O" rings, daresay round ones would also work at a push) but the seals will only leak oil, not coolant.

If there is an oil-coolant leak, it will be in the body of the cooler itself which is essentially a water to oil heat exchanger.
The bad news is they're NLA from Volvo, i was lucky and found one NOS in Sweden (the pervious owner of mine had removed it because it was leaking ATF! It was actually PAS fluid which although is the same stuff, it was the wrong diagnosis - a long story to do with a bodge on the spaceship bushes and wheel alignment) but haven't actually fitted it yet.

Planning that at the same time as the rad.

As for your alternator, does the charge warning light come on when you first turn the key to position 2? If so, does it go out when you start the engine?

If the light comes on at position 2 but doesn't go out once started, you may have a deeper problem. If it doesn't come on and none of the other warning lights that are linked to it come on either, it could be a simpler problem. Start the car, let it warm up for a few minutes then rev it sharply to about 4500-5000rpm and let go of the loud pedal and then check the charging voltage. It should be 14.4-14.0V, 14.4V on a cold regulator and 14.0V on a warm one. It may well be that the slip rings have become dirty/gummy from lack of use and this is preventing the rotor completing the warning light circuit - revving it that high causes two things, first is residual magnetism in the rotor makes the alternator start charging and it's then self-exciting, second is the sudden increase in speed helps to clean the slip rings.

The other warning lights that should come on with the charge warning light are the ABS, low washer fluid, bulb failure and a couple of others, can't think of them just now.

If the warning light doesn't come on and trying that test above doesn't fix it, get a jump lead and clip one end onto the alternator casing (but make sure it isn't likely to become tangled with the drive belts nearby) and the other to battery -ve or a similar convenient earth point. Now turn the key to position 2, if the charge warning lamp lights, start the engine and see what it does and also check the charging voltage. If this gets things working but it stops working when you disconnect the jump lead, suspect the earth strap from the alternator case to the engine - it's mounted in rubber bushes which insulate the alternator casing from the engine!

As for the belts being "challenging", i've seen worse and in fact own worse!



The belts are under there somewhere! Alternator belt, PAS belt, AC belt and hidden under the covers that go to both banks is the timing belt that also drives the water pump!
Being a transverse engine, there's not much space between that end of the engine and the inner wing/chassis! For added "fun factor", to change the PAS belt, you have to remove the engine mount that's hidden behind the coolant tank!

At least on the B280E there's plenty of space in front of the belts, especially with the fan removed!



That said, Volvo have fitted a complicated adjuster system to most belts, when it works properly, it works very well but neglect and lack of lubrication can render it impossible to move. Before attempting to adjust any belts, i'd suggest finding the adjusters and squirting with penetrating lube - i use a 50/50 mix of acetone/synthetic ATF (usually Carlube ATF-U but lately NAPA MV) as i usually have some of it around somewhere.

Much better than mineral (such as Dexron II-D) ATF as the molecules in synthetic ATF are smaller but the main reason i use those is they are Honda Z1 ATF compatible (unlike Dexron) and also meet JWS 3309 which is what Toyota/Lexus specify in the A340 autobox which is just an AW 71 with a different extension housing. As Toyota own Aisin-Warner (who make the AW71) and their minimum reccomendation is JWS3309, i prefer using it in my Volvo box as well as my Rover which needs a Z1 compatible fluid - Dexron melts the adhesive in the clutch packs in it.

While i remember, little tip for checking the colour of the ATF in your car, use some plain white tissue/toilet/kitchen paper and let the fluid drip off the end of the dipstick onto it. This reveals the true colour. I also have some tips for changing the ATF which i'll pass on once the current problems are sorted. For now, all i'll say is DON'T do a flushing change!
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Old Oct 11th, 2021, 21:24   #5
russwinchester
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Absolutely amazing post as ever! Thank you.

So I'll try and answer as many questions as possible...

It's definitely oil; a dip with some kitchen roll confirms it and it's emulsifying. There's no air bubbling I have seen in the expansion tank either.

The transmission oil looks OK, I didn't smell it but it's probably 15 years old at a guess. One for the future like you say.

Great info about the transmission oil cooler...stupid question then, how would I go about checking for a leak? Strip it and visually inspect?

In terms of the charging issue, so when I start the car the only warning lights on are the seat belt, handbrake and oil pressure. When I start it then oil pressure (and seatbelt if buckled up) go off.

After a while (and I guess after I'm running on fast-draining battery power alone) several of the dash lights along the bottom start to become very dimly illuminated (can't remember which ones specifically but it's several in a row). I'll try the 5000rpm trick, I mean that's got to be the best car fix ever if it works :-)

Saying this it's only been revved up to about 3000 so far so it may actually blow a gasket when I try it!!!
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Old Oct 11th, 2021, 22:10   #6
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Absolutely amazing post as ever! Thank you.

So I'll try and answer as many questions as possible...

It's definitely oil; a dip with some kitchen roll confirms it and it's emulsifying. There's no air bubbling I have seen in the expansion tank either.

The transmission oil looks OK, I didn't smell it but it's probably 15 years old at a guess. One for the future like you say.

Great info about the transmission oil cooler...stupid question then, how would I go about checking for a leak? Strip it and visually inspect?

In terms of the charging issue, so when I start the car the only warning lights on are the seat belt, handbrake and oil pressure. When I start it then oil pressure (and seatbelt if buckled up) go off.

After a while (and I guess after I'm running on fast-draining battery power alone) several of the dash lights along the bottom start to become very dimly illuminated (can't remember which ones specifically but it's several in a row). I'll try the 5000rpm trick, I mean that's got to be the best car fix ever if it works :-)

Saying this it's only been revved up to about 3000 so far so it may actually blow a gasket when I try it!!!
Ah, a glimmer from those warning lights is a huge glimmer of hope for the alternator!

As i mentioned further up, those lights all come on with the charge warning lamp (there are other reasons i'll go into at a later point, don't want to swamp you with it all in one go!) if the rotor circuit is intact so the fact they're glowing faintly (or have a glimmer! ) means the circuit is intact but somewhere along the line there is resisitance in it. I'd lay bets it's dirty slip rings and the brushes are slowly cleaning them. A quick blip up to 4500-5000rpm to get the residual magnetism to start the alternator charging should help clean them more as it will then try to pass more power through the rotor to charge the battery. Also by simply running it, mechancial cleaning will occur between the brushes and slip rings.

As for a rev to 5krpm causing it to blow a gasket, as long as it's only a quick rev and you wait a few minutes for it to warm up first, you should be fine. Repeated revving while cold can cause engine damage though.

You can't strip the radiator to the level you need to check for leaks from the heat exchanger for the ATF into the coolant, likewise with the engine oil cooler. However, you could link out the two coolant pipes on the cooler and then run the engine, observing if oil is still finding its way into the coolant and also if it's leaking out of the stubs on the cooler.
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Old Oct 17th, 2021, 20:58   #7
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So I've not had the most successful weekend of Volvoing...

Regarding the oil in coolant mystery, I bypassed the engine oil cooler (easy to type but a pig of a job with rusted jubilee clips and barely any access), ran the engine and no sign of oil leaking from the cooler. So my oil must be coming from somewhere else. ATF cooler leak?

I've also cleaned the crud out of the expansion tank just in case it was emulsifying.

Regarding the alternator charging (or not charging) I tried the revving method, didn't work unfortunately, nor did giving the alternator a good earth.

One observation, of the two belts for the alternator, one is seemingly more slack. Would this affect anything at all?

Final question, as I've focused on some things I can easily do! I'm missing most of the protective caps for the headlamp wipers stops, I have to assume these are NLA....any ideas?

Any advice or encouragement would be appreciated...
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Old Oct 18th, 2021, 00:30   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russwinchester View Post
So I've not had the most successful weekend of Volvoing...

Regarding the oil in coolant mystery, I bypassed the engine oil cooler (easy to type but a pig of a job with rusted jubilee clips and barely any access), ran the engine and no sign of oil leaking from the cooler. So my oil must be coming from somewhere else. ATF cooler leak?

I've also cleaned the crud out of the expansion tank just in case it was emulsifying.

Regarding the alternator charging (or not charging) I tried the revving method, didn't work unfortunately, nor did giving the alternator a good earth.

One observation, of the two belts for the alternator, one is seemingly more slack. Would this affect anything at all?

Final question, as I've focused on some things I can easily do! I'm missing most of the protective caps for the headlamp wipers stops, I have to assume these are NLA....any ideas?

Any advice or encouragement would be appreciated...
On the good side Russ, you've eliminated the engine oil cooler as a possible cause. It has crossed my mind someone may have put oil in the expansion tank by mistake and that is making its way out now but that might be too much to hope for!

As for the ATF leaking into the coolant via the radiator, almost impossible. The cooling system is pressurised at ~16.5psi minimum so if there was a leak on the heat exchanger on the rad, it would leak coolant into the gearbox. Have a look at this post on my thread about converting it to a separate radiator and ATF cooler :

https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showt...92#post2777592

With the alternator, do you still get those warning lights on dimly once it's been running a while? Also when you did the revving test, did the battery voltage come up after or stay ~12V?

With the belts, have you physically checked their tension is the same on each or are you saying they look different when the engine is running? Quite often even matched belts fitted at the same time can give the impression that one is more slack than the other. It could be one belt failed so a new one was fitted on its own (not advisable, if one goes, renew both!) but i strongly suspect what you're seeing is an optical illusion.

I think you need to do a couple more tests on the alternator and perhaps remove it, first test would be to find the warning light wire on the back of it. This will be the thin red wire going to the D+ terminal which should be a round M5 post terminal with a nut securing the wire and its terminal.

You'll need an 8mm socket/spanner to remove it. Connect this with a jumper wire to earth (after disconnecting it from the alternator) and switch the ignition on to position 2 - you should have the charge warning light and the rest of the ones that come on with it shinging brightly.

If so, clean the ring terminal to ensure a good connection and refit then test - that may be all it needs. If they only glow dimly, it sounds like you may have an instrument cluster fault. If you can solder and have a soldering iron with a small bit, you can probably fix this.

If the warning lights lit brightly when the field/D+ wire was earthed but still don't light with the wire reconnected to the alternator, the alternator will have to come off. Once off, remove the two screws holding the voltage regulator in and tip it away from the back of the unit. Look inside the hole it comes from and see what condition the slip rings are in - both should be continuous copper but are likely to be dirty. It's fiddly to do it this way but safer than trying to strip the unit, get some enery tape (NOT sandpaper! ) and put it on the end of your finger and push it onto each slip ring in turn while rotating the pulley to clean the slip rings. Once both are clean, also clean the end of the brushes.

Refit the regulator by holding it at an angle so the brushes enter first, line them up with the slip rings then push the regulator fully into place and refit the screws.

If you have a small test lamp about 3W, you can test it before refitting by connecting the alternator body to battery -ve, the croc clip of the test lamp on the D+ terminal and then touch the other end of the test lamp onto battery +ve - if it lights, you've got the circuit complete again so it should (in theory at least if the lamps lit brightly when you earthed the field/D+ wire) work when refitted to the car.

If the slip rings are worn so you can see the plastic through them, then you're into specialised knowledge to replace the slip rings and need a big (~100+W) soldering iron. Probably best to consider a secondhand or recon unit at this point.

See how you get on and let me know how it goes.
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