New 142 - Page 16

142 Guy · Jan 16th, 2023, 16:35

Just an observation. The B20E and F suffer from a problem that was labeled Hot Injector Syndrome by a Ford engineer. If the injectors heat soak on a hot engine the flow rate through the injectors drops off resulting in a really lean fuel mixture on a hot restart. The problem can be severe enough that the engine may not start or it will run like merde for a couple of minutes until fuel flow through the injectors cools them and the flow rates return to normal.

Volvo (and probably Bosch) became aware of the problem which is why Volvo came out with a partial fix in late 1971 that consisted of phenolic washers that sandwiched the aluminum injector holders. The phenolic sandwich reduced heat transfer to the injector from the head. This helped; but, did not eliminate the problem. The biggest contributing factor to the hot injector problem appears to be that on non cross flow engines like the B20 the injectors sit directly over the exhaust manifold so they get a good cooking on shut down.

The hot restart problem is most severe on hot days. I remember one occasion on a sunny day when the ambient was around 30 C. I had parked my 142 E at a shopping center to pick up some items allowing the injectors to heat soak for about 10 - 15 minutes. On returning the engine was hard to start and after getting it started the AFRs were in the 20 - 22 range (where my gauge tops out so it may go higher). This was with the retrofitted phenolic washers installed. As the engine ran you could see the AFRs drop as fuel flow cooled the injectors.

I have MS Extra retrofitted which allowed me to create a configuration patch which helps with the problem. When the engine coolant temperature is above 60 or 70 C I start to add fuel back in to both the cranking fuel pulse widths and the after start enrichment pulse widths and increase the taper time for the ASE as the temperature increases. I have also fabricated an aluminum heat shield / view block that sits between the top of the intake & exhaust manifold and the bottom side of the injectors. That shields the injectors from infrared radiation from the exhaust manifold. Even with the phenolic washers, my software patches and the heat shield I still incur some lean running on a hot restart; but, the patches ensure the engine will start and at least be driveable.

The reason I mention this is that I notice that the mounts that you have fabricated to hold the injector rail are above the injectors. This may act to reflect radiant energy from the manifold back on to the injector body. Whether that will be a problem remains to be seen. You are not using the original Bosch injectors so your injectors may be less susceptible to the hot injector problem. However, the D jet equipped cars were not the only vehicles to suffer from this problem. The Jeeps that used the straight 4 and 6 non cross flow engines also suffered from this problem. Chrysler's solution was a view block heat shield and thermal wraps for the injectors. The wraps made the injectors look like pigs in a blanket. The pigs in a blanket may be an option for you with your smaller body injectors.

Depending on how hot and sunny Aberdeen gets in the summer, this may or may not be a problem for you. I have discussed this problem with owners in Arizona and California who have reported that even with the insulating washer retrofit, in hot weather hot restarts are next to impossible. The engine needs to sit for an hour or two before it will restart and then runs badly until the injectors cool sufficiently to allow smoother running. So, something to be aware of because your fuel rail holder may exacerbate the problem.

Burdekin · Jan 16th, 2023, 18:26

Thanks, I’d read about this and thought about options but was going to suck it and see what if anything is needed. I have the isolating kit so will fit it in the final fitting. The increased fuel volume in the fuel rail I thought may help as well.

I’m going for a MaxxECU and been doing plenty of reading and watching tutorial videos. I don’t know if the start up and running table will automatically adapt for any lean running.

Aberdeen doesn’t get hot, 28c is a very hot day here and about 20c probably a more normal warm summer day.

142 Guy · Jan 17th, 2023, 14:20

If 20C is a normal summer day then the hot start problem may not be a material issue for you. It will run lean on start up; but, will probably start fine and the lean running will resolve itself quickly. 28 C will likely give you some rough running on start up, particularly if the engine compartment was hot at shut down. Waiting to see if the problem is material may be a good option for you.

If you are using one of those auto configure (some call them auto tune) provisions to set your Ve fuel map, do not try and have it change the Ve values during a hot start to get the target AFR. That will make the Ve values in those cells grossly out of wack for regular running.

Be aware that the hot injector problem always seems to be a little bit present. If I let the auto configure set the Ve values in the fuel map to meet the target AFRs when the engine is stinky hot, then let it cool overnight and do a start up the next day the engine will always run perhaps 0.5 richer on the AFR even though the coolant is up to normal. I am guessing because the injectors are cooler. If the engine gets really hot things return to the previous day values. It is safer to auto configure on a stinky hot engine and run a little rich when it is cooler than auto configure on a warm engine and run lean when it gets stinky hot.

Whether or not those brackets for the fuel rail contribute to injector heating, they do look to be a visually elegant solution.

Burdekin · Jan 24th, 2023, 20:40

Some more bits for the 142 FI conversion. Not sure yet how I'll connect the accelerator cable to the pedal yet, got a 240 one if that turns out to be an option. If anyone has got the part number 2 in the schematic and willing to sell please get in touch. The blue fittings are pretty naft but not many options I could find and the blue matches the pressure regulator. They're 14 x 1.5mm. The distributor thingy is a Mitsubishi cam angle sensor which also does crank pickup. Hopefully have the parts for the e head tomorrow and can then take the head off to the machine shop.

142 Guy · Jan 24th, 2023, 21:23

Did you get the Yoshifab replacement 24-1 trigger wheel? If not, you definitely will want that. Did you purchase a new sensor or were you able to find one from a salvage yard? They are getting really pricey. When I did my MS2Extra install back in 2017 I purchased a brand new OEM sensor for a 1993 Hyundai Sonata for around $55 Cdn. That particular ship seems to have definitely set sail.

I don't know what the availability of salvage 140s is like in GB. If you could find a salvage 140 or 164 that was originally equipped with D jet, grabbing that linkage should offer a relatively easy solution to connecting up to your D jet manifold. Replacement cables are available. The ball joint in the mechanism may have worn; but, that should not present an issue for an enterprising individual. The linkage for my car is mounted on the right side of the firewall so it sort of looks like it should accommodate LHS or RHS with just a change of the actual pedal mechanism.

Does your 140 currently have the gas pedal that is hinged on the floor and presses on an L shaped piece of tubing? If so, all you might need is the D jet specific linkage that mounts on the firewall

Burdekin · Jan 25th, 2023, 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by 142 Guy

Did you get the Yoshifab replacement 24-1 trigger wheel? If not, you definitely will want that. Did you purchase a new sensor or were you able to find one from a salvage yard? They are getting really pricey. When I did my MS2Extra install back in 2017 I purchased a brand new OEM sensor for a 1993 Hyundai Sonata for around $55 Cdn. That particular ship seems to have definitely set sail.

I don't know what the availability of salvage 140s is like in GB. If you could find a salvage 140 or 164 that was originally equipped with D jet, grabbing that linkage should offer a relatively easy solution to connecting up to your D jet manifold. Replacement cables are available. The ball joint in the mechanism may have worn; but, that should not present an issue for an enterprising individual. The linkage for my car is mounted on the right side of the firewall so it sort of looks like it should accommodate LHS or RHS with just a change of the actual pedal mechanism.

Does your 140 currently have the gas pedal that is hinged on the floor and presses on an L shaped piece of tubing? If so, all you might need is the D jet specific linkage that mounts on the firewall

Yes.

Been looking but stuff all about. Ah I've not seen a new 140 cable, will have a search.

I don't know is the problem, car is parked up for winter and don't want to move it until I have to. I have a few options worked out so just need to see how my pedal is mounted.

Burdekin · Jan 25th, 2023, 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by 142 Guy

Did you get the Yoshifab replacement 24-1 trigger wheel? If not, you definitely will want that. Did you purchase a new sensor or were you able to find one from a salvage yard? They are getting really pricey. When I did my MS2Extra install back in 2017 I purchased a brand new OEM sensor for a 1993 Hyundai Sonata for around $55 Cdn. That particular ship seems to have definitely set sail.

I don't know what the availability of salvage 140s is like in GB. If you could find a salvage 140 or 164 that was originally equipped with D jet, grabbing that linkage should offer a relatively easy solution to connecting up to your D jet manifold. Replacement cables are available. The ball joint in the mechanism may have worn; but, that should not present an issue for an enterprising individual. The linkage for my car is mounted on the right side of the firewall so it sort of looks like it should accommodate LHS or RHS with just a change of the actual pedal mechanism.

Does your 140 currently have the gas pedal that is hinged on the floor and presses on an L shaped piece of tubing? If so, all you might need is the D jet specific linkage that mounts on the firewall

Does your accelerator cable connect to the pedal with this clip or direct to the pedal like the 240s do you know?

142 Guy · Jan 25th, 2023, 15:38

I have attached the parts arrangement for the throttle linkage on my B20E. It looks like the throttle pedal part (parts #1 right up to #21) appear to be identical for the carb and D jet cars.

It is parts #22 - 30 that attach to the firewall that are D jet specific. Note that the diagram is misleading. Based upon the orientation of the gas pedal, the diagram implies that the bracket and linkage are mounted on the inside of the firewall. #26 and #21 need to be rotated 180 deg around the vertical axis to be in their correct orientation. If you are interested, I might have a photo from disassembly of my car showing the linkage on the firewall.

The throttle cable has a clevis on both ends
https://vp-autoparts.com/en/artiklar...40-b20e-f.html

That clip you show is 677218 and it definitely secures the throttle cable clevis at the throttle body mechanism. I believe that it is the same clip that secures the cable clevis at the crank mechanism on the firewall; but, it has been so long since I intentionally 'looked' at it I can't be sure. The parts diagram implies that the cable is retained at the firewall by magic.

If you can scrounge parts #22 and #26 that would likely be the quick path to dealing with your throttle linkage

Burdekin · Jan 25th, 2023, 19:52

Excellent thanks, so totally different to the 240. A pic would be great if you have one.

I haven’t been able to source a E cable bracket but I have maybe found the next best a automatic kick down bracket, would need a bit of a mod but certainly workable and result similar to the E setup. Needs to be turned 90degrees.

142 Guy · Jan 25th, 2023, 21:33

Pictures taken as I was disassembling the car and putting parts into bags and boxes.

Jan 16th, 2023, 18:26	#152
Burdekin Chief Bodger Last Online: Today 05:59 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Aberdeen	Thanks, I’d read about this and thought about options but was going to suck it and see what if anything is needed. I have the isolating kit so will fit it in the final fitting. The increased fuel volume in the fuel rail I thought may help as well. I’m going for a MaxxECU and been doing plenty of reading and watching tutorial videos. I don’t know if the start up and running table will automatically adapt for any lean running. Aberdeen doesn’t get hot, 28c is a very hot day here and about 20c probably a more normal warm summer day. __________________ One day I will get rid of all of the rust.

Jan 24th, 2023, 21:23	#155
142 Guy Master Member Last Online: Yesterday 16:07 Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada	Did you get the Yoshifab replacement 24-1 trigger wheel? If not, you definitely will want that. Did you purchase a new sensor or were you able to find one from a salvage yard? They are getting really pricey. When I did my MS2Extra install back in 2017 I purchased a brand new OEM sensor for a 1993 Hyundai Sonata for around $55 Cdn. That particular ship seems to have definitely set sail. I don't know what the availability of salvage 140s is like in GB. If you could find a salvage 140 or 164 that was originally equipped with D jet, grabbing that linkage should offer a relatively easy solution to connecting up to your D jet manifold. Replacement cables are available. The ball joint in the mechanism may have worn; but, that should not present an issue for an enterprising individual. The linkage for my car is mounted on the right side of the firewall so it sort of looks like it should accommodate LHS or RHS with just a change of the actual pedal mechanism. Does your 140 currently have the gas pedal that is hinged on the floor and presses on an L shaped piece of tubing? If so, all you might need is the D jet specific linkage that mounts on the firewall Last edited by 142 Guy; Jan 24th, 2023 at 21:28.

Jan 16th, 2023, 16:35	#151
142 Guy Master Member Last Online: Yesterday 16:07 Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada	Just an observation. The B20E and F suffer from a problem that was labeled Hot Injector Syndrome by a Ford engineer. If the injectors heat soak on a hot engine the flow rate through the injectors drops off resulting in a really lean fuel mixture on a hot restart. The problem can be severe enough that the engine may not start or it will run like merde for a couple of minutes until fuel flow through the injectors cools them and the flow rates return to normal. Volvo (and probably Bosch) became aware of the problem which is why Volvo came out with a partial fix in late 1971 that consisted of phenolic washers that sandwiched the aluminum injector holders. The phenolic sandwich reduced heat transfer to the injector from the head. This helped; but, did not eliminate the problem. The biggest contributing factor to the hot injector problem appears to be that on non cross flow engines like the B20 the injectors sit directly over the exhaust manifold so they get a good cooking on shut down. The hot restart problem is most severe on hot days. I remember one occasion on a sunny day when the ambient was around 30 C. I had parked my 142 E at a shopping center to pick up some items allowing the injectors to heat soak for about 10 - 15 minutes. On returning the engine was hard to start and after getting it started the AFRs were in the 20 - 22 range (where my gauge tops out so it may go higher). This was with the retrofitted phenolic washers installed. As the engine ran you could see the AFRs drop as fuel flow cooled the injectors. I have MS Extra retrofitted which allowed me to create a configuration patch which helps with the problem. When the engine coolant temperature is above 60 or 70 C I start to add fuel back in to both the cranking fuel pulse widths and the after start enrichment pulse widths and increase the taper time for the ASE as the temperature increases. I have also fabricated an aluminum heat shield / view block that sits between the top of the intake & exhaust manifold and the bottom side of the injectors. That shields the injectors from infrared radiation from the exhaust manifold. Even with the phenolic washers, my software patches and the heat shield I still incur some lean running on a hot restart; but, the patches ensure the engine will start and at least be driveable. The reason I mention this is that I notice that the mounts that you have fabricated to hold the injector rail are above the injectors. This may act to reflect radiant energy from the manifold back on to the injector body. Whether that will be a problem remains to be seen. You are not using the original Bosch injectors so your injectors may be less susceptible to the hot injector problem. However, the D jet equipped cars were not the only vehicles to suffer from this problem. The Jeeps that used the straight 4 and 6 non cross flow engines also suffered from this problem. Chrysler's solution was a view block heat shield and thermal wraps for the injectors. The wraps made the injectors look like pigs in a blanket. The pigs in a blanket may be an option for you with your smaller body injectors. Depending on how hot and sunny Aberdeen gets in the summer, this may or may not be a problem for you. I have discussed this problem with owners in Arizona and California who have reported that even with the insulating washer retrofit, in hot weather hot restarts are next to impossible. The engine needs to sit for an hour or two before it will restart and then runs badly until the injectors cool sufficiently to allow smoother running. So, something to be aware of because your fuel rail holder may exacerbate the problem.

Jan 17th, 2023, 14:20	#153
142 Guy Master Member Last Online: Yesterday 16:07 Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada	If 20C is a normal summer day then the hot start problem may not be a material issue for you. It will run lean on start up; but, will probably start fine and the lean running will resolve itself quickly. 28 C will likely give you some rough running on start up, particularly if the engine compartment was hot at shut down. Waiting to see if the problem is material may be a good option for you. If you are using one of those auto configure (some call them auto tune) provisions to set your Ve fuel map, do not try and have it change the Ve values during a hot start to get the target AFR. That will make the Ve values in those cells grossly out of wack for regular running. Be aware that the hot injector problem always seems to be a little bit present. If I let the auto configure set the Ve values in the fuel map to meet the target AFRs when the engine is stinky hot, then let it cool overnight and do a start up the next day the engine will always run perhaps 0.5 richer on the AFR even though the coolant is up to normal. I am guessing because the injectors are cooler. If the engine gets really hot things return to the previous day values. It is safer to auto configure on a stinky hot engine and run a little rich when it is cooler than auto configure on a warm engine and run lean when it gets stinky hot. Whether or not those brackets for the fuel rail contribute to injector heating, they do look to be a visually elegant solution.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)