Suspension: 850: Switching back from coilovers - parts needed?

[dahamsta]

What parts would I need to switch from coilovers back to standard shocks and springs, i.e. what would have been taken off when the coilovers were fitted? I'm buying a kit from PFS which includes some parts but they're not sure if anything else will be needed, and I want to make sure I have everything when I hand it over to my mechanic.

Other options for the kit are Eibach springs, which I'll probably go for, and Koni Special Active (formerly FSD) shocks, however the FSDs put the kit close to a grand. Anyone gone with this setup on an 855R? Here's a copy and paste about the car that I sent to PFS:

- I have strut braces front and rear (in the boot, not underneath).
- An iPD anti-roll bar is installed in the rear, and I have one for installation in the front.
- The car is on 18s with 5mm spacers front and 20mm rear. I don't think (hope!) this should be a concern with a 30mm drop.
- The roadholding is great with the current setup, but the ride is pretty bad, mostly because of the aging coilovers.
- I'd like a good balance of ride and roadholding, with a slight bias to ride.

Switching because the car failed on a suspension imbalance, one of the shocks is forked. The rears have sagged a lot too. I was hoping to put this car on air at some point, but a) I can't afford it, and b) there's no-one available to fit it here.

[JohnM 855 T5R]

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Other options for the kit are Eibach springs, which I'll probably go for, and Koni Special Active (formerly FSD) shocks, however the FSDs put the kit close to a grand. Anyone gone with this setup on an 855R

In my opinion (and I'm sure others will disagree), save your money. Koni FSD shocks were tested by a number of magazines here and in the States on a range of cars and the general belief was that they didn't make any appreciable difference to either ride quality or handling. I personally know of 2 people who have had FSD's. One was standard factory fit on a Fiat 595 competizione. The owner found the ride to be terrible. The other was a replacement fit onto a BMW 4 series whose owner reckoned they were all hype as he found no difference in handling characteristics or ride. You would be better off going for Bilstein B4's which are more or less equivalent to standard or if you really are determined to have a stiffer ride, then Bilstein B6's (though I think you'll regret it as other owners on here have). As for springs, again, personally I would go for standard ride height. Lowering really makes very little appreciable difference in real terms on the road without a host of other suspension mods. In fact, lowering risks messing up the carefully worked out factory suspension geometry which was pretty damn good on the T-5R and 850/855R. Both had outstanding and class leading lateral G performance in their day.
As for parts, you'll want new damper top mounts anyway. I cant think of anything else.

Regards
John

[RollingThunder]

I'm with John on this

However, if you want to stray from OEM parts, then Eibach make good springs, as do H&R. For a budget option, consider Kilen springs - they are (or were) part of the Lesjofors group who made the original coil springs for Volvo back in the '90s. I fitted these and a set of Bilstein touring dampers to my last 940 estate and it was an excellent combination - along with the iPd anti roll bars.

[CNGBiFuel]

As with many mods, you're hard set to improve on something factory-developed if you don't intend to spend a lot more than is viable. Doing your own R&D is never going to be cheap.

It costs millions to develop a car, real developemt engineers have numerous permutations at their disposal, this to get where the car is at production. The aftermarket outfits don't do as much testing, simply because they can't.

The myth goes that a factory team of highly experienced development engineers can be outdone by a bloke with a box of spanners. This fallacy keeps the after-market goodies business going.

These were properly configured from the off... as fitted R variants and BiFuels, the best set-up is a set of new Nivomats with a 'nice new Nivomat price'. You'll get a proper ride and ride level. Compared with producing a lin-up of options to test for yourself, this is the cheapest way to get what you're after, knowing that this was done already... only that won't make it cheap.

Yes... you can bodge it with less, and it might work out, only the further you stray from what was done, the higher chance you'll get less.

As said 'Doing your own R&D is never going to be cheap.'

[JohnM 855 T5R]

Totally agree with all your views on this CNGBiFuel

Regards
John

[CNGBiFuel]

Love the car-trade. Seems many take it on board. I chuckle.

It gets risible… 150 mpg with special carburettors, some widget holds the secret of eternal-youth and huge civilisations live under the sea.

You know the kind of thing:

Stickers = +5 hp
Spoilers = +10hp
Big-bore fart cannon = + 50hp
Black paint = +100hp
These are race parts, so they’re certain to be "good for my car”.

Add a few upgrades together and any car’s a 700bhp fire-breathing monster doing 70mpg. Women drag you from your car and beg for sex. Lest we forget the beard-brigade that’ll only buy main dealer oil. plugs, filters etc, and don’t get me started on snake-oil, braided-hoses and the myriad big brake-fallacies?

The more you spend, the more you lose.

Don't have me wrong - Few could truly blame the car-trade. They want to sell 'race-parts' and.... er, we willingly suck up this tripe.

[RollingThunder]

Guys, as much as I agree with much of what both of you usually say, I think this is going off at a tangent. The OP asked -

Originally Posted by dahamsta

What parts would I need to switch from coilovers back to standard shocks and springs, i.e. what would have been taken off when the coilovers were fitted?

I think we'd be more helpful returning to the original question

[foggyjames]

There's an interesting point lurking in the background of this, somewhere. I saw a "meme" recently which featured a Japanese businessman saying "You improved the suspension we at Honda spent £50m developing using £500 parts from eBay. You're an engineering genius! There's a job waiting for you in Japan!".

I think it's pretty easy to improve the performance of a given component in a particular manner. My 343 is now far more capable on a track than it was in its factory condition. However, the ride comfort is appalling, and I'm fairly certain it's actually slower on a bumpy back-road than it was when it was standard.

The difficult part in all of this is balancing "performance" vs NVH vs component lifespan, etc. That's where they spend the money. I once spent an hour or so chatting to a suspension design engineer who works for Nissan over dinner. It was a pretty interesting conversation, coming at it from an enthusiast perspective!

cheers

James

[acshortt5]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

There's an interesting point lurking in the background of this, somewhere. I saw a "meme" recently which featured a Japanese businessman saying "You improved the suspension we at Honda spent £50m developing using £500 parts from eBay. You're an engineering genius! There's a job waiting for you in Japan!".

I think it's pretty easy to improve the performance of a given component in a particular manner. My 343 is now far more capable on a track than it was in its factory condition. However, the ride comfort is appalling, and I'm fairly certain it's actually slower on a bumpy back-road than it was when it was standard.

The difficult part in all of this is balancing "performance" vs NVH vs component lifespan, etc. That's where they spend the money. I once spent an hour or so chatting to a suspension design engineer who works for Nissan over dinner. It was a pretty interesting conversation, coming at it from an enthusiast perspective!

cheers

James

I've been saying for ages that it's always a compromise. You also get what you pay for as well. The ride comfort in my mx5 with (mid range) coilovers & pillowball top mounts is actually better than the volvo, apart from ground clearance over speedbumps...

I've driven a variety of cars inc. FWD, RWD and 4WD and these cars (for the big heavy barges they are) handle quite well out of the box (pun intended) if everything is in good nick. Yes they understeer but only when you push on quite hard and they are forgiving if you mess up.

Personally I think you can make more of an improvement handling wise with the tyres, going wider and better quality, than messing with the suspension. The T5's really should have come with at least 215 wide tyres like the R's IMO.

I think what happens is people replace old worn out parts with shiny new upgrade parts and subsequently claim a massive improvement which of course you will get anyway as the old bits were knackered and you would have seen a big improvement if you'd changed like for like.

Having the choice is a good thing though as it lets people alter things to how they like it.

Clearly the manufacturers have other priorities with finding something that will work, in a wide range of countries with different climates, that will last just over the warranty period and is cheap enough to keep the accountants happy.

[CNGBiFuel]

I think what happens is people replace old worn out parts with shiny new upgrade parts and subsequently claim a massive improvement which of course you will get anyway as the old bits were knackered and you would have seen a big improvement if you'd changed like for like.

That made me smile, it's so, so true. My favourite is the bloke with the vastly improved brakes. He's swapped old blown-out de-laminated factory brake-hoses with "Aahh Bisto" running thru' them, and a seized caliper, for shiny-braided ("ferma pidol innit") hose, with 'race parts' and get this... wonder of wonders, fresh fluid.

Or the car that goes slighty faster, only you'd not want to sit in the thing for more than five minutes.