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Geartronic vs. DCT - experiences?

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Old Sep 16th, 2021, 11:39   #1
Haldex
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Default Geartronic vs. DCT - experiences?

Hello bunch. Contemplating a new purchase - and having done a test-drive/configuration in July - now I was asked by the dealer to re-do my configuration due to some “technical changes” in the french-market model palette. Now I see that the drivetrain combo that I want is only offered with 7-speed dual-clutch- no more Aisin 8-box. They don’t have it available for test - so I really don’t know what I’m getting myself into.. Has anyone tested the new DCT and can someone share their opinion on it here, specifically how it fares against the good old slushbox? Geartronic was slow alright but it was trouble-free and well suited to the character of these cars/engines offered.. I imagine DCT should provide for quicker shifts and (maybe?..) slightly better fuel economy/performance - but is it as reliable/low maintenance as old-school torque-converters?..

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Old Sep 16th, 2021, 14:00   #2
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Originally Posted by Haldex View Post
Hello bunch. Contemplating a new purchase - and having done a test-drive/configuration in July - now I was asked by the dealer to re-do my configuration due to some “technical changes” in the french-market model palette. Now I see that the drivetrain combo that I want is only offered with 7-speed dual-clutch- no more Aisin 8-box. They don’t have it available for test - so I really don’t know what I’m getting myself into.. Has anyone tested the new DCT and can someone share their opinion on it here, specifically how it fares against the good old slushbox? Geartronic was slow alright but it was trouble-free and well suited to the character of these cars/engines offered.. I imagine DCT should provide for quicker shifts and (maybe?..) slightly better fuel economy/performance - but is it as reliable/low maintenance as old-school torque-converters?..

Cheers!
All other things being equal there are far more moving and wearing parts in a DCT. The DCT is basically a robotised manual transmission complete with all the synchromesh and selectors that are rammed into the correct ratio by the mechatronics. It has two shafts with a clutch on each so that even ratios are engaged by one clutch and odd ratios engaged by the other. In the background, controlled by the ECU's logic system, the disengaged shaft anticipated the next change to be either up or down and changed the next ratio ready for the clutch to engage its drive. The only exceptions are first and top gear which can only change in one direction.

While the clutches on more powerful cars are wet, oil cooled units that should last a very long time, they must slip to start off smoothly and when creeping along, which should itself be avoided. Eventually they will wear like dry clutches but in general you should expect about five times the life.

However, apart from the complexity and probable long term wear on the gear change mechanism's mechanical complications, the DCT is especially problematic when towing heavy loads. There is no torque multiplying effect for starting off up hill from a torque convertor, so a start is totally reliant on the clutch that engages first, third, fifth and seventh ratios. This is usually a larger clutch than for the other shaft, due to the higher torque of the first ratio starting the car [and trailer] rolling.

The DCT transmissions can be very quick changing but basically the driver should feel no difference when driving to the 8 speed automatic. Except when starting off which inevitably has a more positive, possibly 'grabby' feel.

I have not driven a Volvo DCT and was unaware that they were to be fitted. However I did change from a Volvo XC90 eight speed, which was superb, to an equally superb Kia Sorento diesel with the Hyundai Group Wet8 DCT transmission. Although Kia has a very long and comprehensive warranty, I am not so sure about the very long term durability of DCT transmissions. They do, after all, change ratios in the background and totally undetectable by the passengers/driver, many times more than they actually engage those ratios between engine and wheels by dint of either clutch pack, particularly on challenging roads.
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Old Sep 16th, 2021, 20:22   #3
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Thanks Quacker, always good to hear from you! What you wrote makes sense.. You just confirmed my worries though Even though I won”t be towing - I tend to drive a bit aggressively - I am quite curious how will the overcomplicated DCT hold up to my foot.. Granted I intend on keeping a new car no longer than my current one - 4-5 yrs max. By that time cars as we know them may be extinct

Checked with the dealer again today - they seem to have another model/drivetrain with DCT available for a test drive - I’ll have to satisfy my curiosity sometime next week before I part with €€..

Still eager to hear other forumers’ thoughts 👍
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Old Sep 16th, 2021, 21:31   #4
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Originally Posted by Haldex View Post
Thanks Quacker, always good to hear from you! What you wrote makes sense.. You just confirmed my worries though Even though I won”t be towing - I tend to drive a bit aggressively - I am quite curious how will the overcomplicated DCT hold up to my foot.. Granted I intend on keeping a new car no longer than my current one - 4-5 yrs max. By that time cars as we know them may be extinct

Checked with the dealer again today - they seem to have another model/drivetrain with DCT available for a test drive - I’ll have to satisfy my curiosity sometime next week before I part with €€..

Still eager to hear other forumers’ thoughts 👍
Prior to my Volvo I had a Mk3 Audi TT with a DSG gearbox. Very rapid gear changes as mentioned, but not super smooth though in day to day traffic. Horses for courses I guess. I much prefer the smoothness of the torque converter gearbox for the type of car I'm now driving and wouldn't change it for a DCT box in the V90 if one was available. I did recall the DSG required a relatively expensive gearbox oil change every 40k miles.
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Old Sep 17th, 2021, 01:30   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldex View Post
Thanks Quacker, always good to hear from you! What you wrote makes sense.. You just confirmed my worries though Even though I won”t be towing - I tend to drive a bit aggressively - I am quite curious how will the overcomplicated DCT hold up to my foot.. Granted I intend on keeping a new car no longer than my current one - 4-5 yrs max. By that time cars as we know them may be extinct

Checked with the dealer again today - they seem to have another model/drivetrain with DCT available for a test drive - I’ll have to satisfy my curiosity sometime next week before I part with €€..

Still eager to hear other forumers’ thoughts 👍
To put people's mind at ease, just in case my post alarmed, this type of transmission is increasingly being fitted to heavy road trucks and off-road agricultural tractors as well as cars. In big tractors the choice is often between a semi-powershift, which is like a car's automatic but with several ranges to give maybe 24 ratios from six powershift/automatic steps, or a full power-splitting CVT or the 8 speed plus four or more ranges for the powershift/automatic DCT transmissions. The semi-powershift and DCT transmissions tend to be more efficient on the road but the infinite ratios at fixed RPM of the CVT has distinct advantages for some workloads.

If you see a Fendt or current model JCB tractor it will have a CVT transmission. Other brands commonly give a choice of any of the three types, but never a manual transmission these days.

I have been very impressed by my Kia's transmission so far. It is impeccably smooth and very fast changing. Quite how it achieves that combination under all conditions is a mystery to me. Other brand's offerings are not known as the only other DCT's I've briefly tried were a Ford six speed and a VW seven speed in a Golf. As far as I could tell they were OK but both had a mixed reputation at the time, a few years ago.

In about five year's time, electric cars will probably be the best sellers and that does away completely with gearboxes as we know them today, basically only needing final drives. A great advance on IC engines in every way apart from refuelling at long distance. However yesterday's incident at the cross channel electric cable terminal which has led to a massive shortfall in UK capacity and an even greater increase in wholesale gas and electricity prices that is likely to last until around March '22 has highlighted the vulnerability and supply security issues of our National Grid's and its marginal generating capacity.
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Old Sep 17th, 2021, 08:18   #6
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I had 2 Skoda with DCT. The 150hp diesel and the 220hp TSI.

I can say without doubt that the Volvo transmission is far smoother than the DCT on the Skoda (VAG). That is in terms of routine gear change and behaviour under kickdown.

The most annoying part was the slow speed manoeuvring especially on any slope. When switching between forward/reverse the box delays engaging for a second, then it drops out of gear if the car gets close to standstill and then clunks back into gear when you go back on the accelerator; only a little jump but it made parking close to a wall very nervy for example. Maybe you could try a 3 point turn in narrow space between obstructions if you have a test drive?

Although gear changes were quick they were always noticeable and often resulted in large changes to rpm thus making the ride feel more aggressive and more uncomfortable.

All that is a very subjective personal opinion of course so please take it as such.
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Old Sep 17th, 2021, 08:30   #7
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I don't know what the Volvo dual clutch will be.
I came out of an Alfa with the worlds best TCT gearbox. In the later version I had they introduced a 'creep' function that replicated the feature of a torque converter box. The VW/Audi system was perhaps the worst type and was well known for hesitation at roundabouts. Alfa had obviously 'borrowed' from Ferrari sister brand. But Alfa now use the ZF 8 speed auto.
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Old Sep 17th, 2021, 10:09   #8
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Has anybody got a web reference for Volvo future models being fitted with DCT transmission?
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Old Sep 17th, 2021, 21:58   #9
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I thought that the XC40 recharge ,PHEV, has
a DCT box.
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Old Sep 21st, 2021, 16:51   #10
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Yes, as Whiterdesign noted, plug-in hybrids were equipped with DCT - today I'm told by the dealer that they are killing the T2/T3 versions (for Fr market at least..) and have switched all remaining XC40 powertrains to DCT.

Test drove an XC40 T5 PHEV with DCT today for a couple of hours. It seems transparent (ie. like a torque converter automatic..) on highway speeds, midrange overtaking etc - but is certainly noticeable in the city driving - no jerkiness but gear changes are instant and hence more noticeable. Not sure I like it but it is what it is..

I am told that it yields better economy - difficult to say as I had it in Power mode + battery hold, to feel the transmission working - so the 3-banger averaged 8.3L/100km (33-ish mpg). Performance wise.. well. it's a 3-cyl.. without the electric motor kicking in it's pretty.. unimpressive.. and lawnmower-like sounding..

Decided the tranny is not a dealbreaker - heck, I hate the joystick-type shifter as well - but I can learn to live with it. Ordered an XC40 B4 AWD in RD guise - hoping to see it in January
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