V70: General - V70 2009 2.0d Engine start button changed function - Page 2

Laz · Mar 31st, 2016, 18:09

They checked their service log this morning for me and said that the software hasn't been updated.
Mine works exactly the same way as you have described yours press clutch (gear on mine does not seem to matter, that's why you need to press clutch) then press button once. Thanks for the input.

Laz · Apr 2nd, 2016, 10:43

I have tried everything I could imagine yesterday. Disconnected the battery for 3 hrs, just to reset everything. Didn't help. Tried second key, didn't help. Checked every fuse in the car I knew about, all seemed fine. I might be wrong but I still don't think the ignition problem has anything to do with the actual switch or the starter switch/key unit or whatever it's called.
Also it seems way too coincidental that this problem appeared after the dealer had my car for 10 days. Never before and from the very moment I have collected my car from them.
Could it have anything to do with the clutch pedal sensor? It works in a sense that it would not ignite without the clutch being depressed but as far as I know that sensor also senses how far the pedal has been pushed in. Could they have put it back somehow the wrong way so it records wrong readings hence affecting the ignition? Also read somewhere that it might got some brake/clutch fluid on which can also affect it's readings. That's why they changed the master cylinder in my car because it was leaking. Any ideas anyone? I tried to remove the clutch sensor but it seems like it's a job for the great Houdini. I could not squeeze my hands in any further than just to touch it. I could not remove it to have a look at it. I'm sure there is a way I just could not figure it out yesterday also had not much time to play around with it.
Another thing I can imagine that it must have a relay somewhere when I press the ignition button it must trigger a relay which is held in until the engine kicks in for that one or two seconds. I was thinking that if there is such relay it might be faulty. It just drives me crazy.

BL08 · Apr 3rd, 2016, 05:20

I think that the immediate delay at the start of the process is your glow plugs heating up before the engine is actually turned over. Clearly that will take longer on really cold mornings and must be controlled by some clever gubbins somewhere. Whether that's related to your issue with the button though....

Laz · Apr 3rd, 2016, 09:12

Hi BL08. The dealer thought the same as you that my problem was the delay because of the glow plugs. That's not the problem. I've had a push button start car before this for 5 years so I got used to this. That was a Laguna, and on that sometimes I pressed the button and had to wait 4-5 seconds before something happened. So I'm not bothered about that, that's normal.
My problem is that I have to keep the button depressed until the engine is running. Because the weather is not so cold now as soon as I touch the button the starter motor starts but if I release it before the engine kicks in the starter motor stops. Before it was enough just to basically touch the button for a very short moment and the starter motor did it's job automatically, it turned until the engine started. I don't know how else to explain it. I used to get in the car pressed the clutch and the start button and immediately started to put on my seat belt. By the time I put the seat belt on the engine was running. I use my left hand to press the button and to put my seat belt on. Now I get in the car as per my routine I press the button once and reach for the seat belt and realize that the starter motor and starting procedure stopped at the very moment I release the button. So I have to push the button, hold it for about 2 seconds (as in a key operated car you turn it and hold it until it kicks in, then release it) wait for the engine to kick in, then proceed with my "rituals". I hope it's more clear now.
Anyway I appreciate you're trying to help, I'm open to any suggestions.
Yesterday I played around with the clutch sensor I took the car out for a ride on a long empty road and put on cruise control and pressed the clutch and it had to go in about 1/3 way before the cruise control stopped. With the brake pedal I just have to touch it. I can't remember if this was the case before they fixed my clutch and if it's normal or not. It might have something to do with my problem and also it can be something totally else.

Sasha94 · Apr 3rd, 2016, 13:46

I'm not sure the glow plugs have much to do with this; on the 2 136ps 2.0D's I had before the D5 I never saw the glow plug light, they don't do much on modern diesels until below freezing. On my D5, if it's cold outside the procedure is much the same as the OP, touch the button and wait. Sometimes there's a split second wait after releasing the button but no matter what, it always spins the starter motor over enough to start the car then stops by itself. I wonder if an experiment could be conducted to see how the start button on the OP's car is working? I mean as in remove fuel to the engine and press the button. Will the engine keep turning over or will the OP have perfect control of the SM? My point being that it would seem some programming is involved here to spin the starter until the engine fires, I wonder if this is not clutch related and has something to do with the wiring to the starter motor.

It's a very bad idea to try this with fuel still flowing into the injectors but I know if you press the button on my D5 with the engine running the starter motor won't spin; it knows it's already running. If your car isn't engaging this computer control to spin the starter for say 10 seconds or until the engine starts whichever comes first and you have total control of the starter then there is the possibility that you could continue to press the button once the engine is running and still spin the starter. This would pinpoint the fault but it's not a good idea to do, hence I wonder about testing in a scenario you know won't start the engine.

Re cruise, having an auto, I can't help there, I can only confirm that the brake pedal on my car disengages the cruise as soon as it is pressed.

Laz · Apr 3rd, 2016, 17:30

Thank you Sasha94. I think my only option now is to wait another two weeks and see what the main dealer has to say about this. If I find the solution I'll post it here for others to learn from. The only one report about the exact same fault I found online was the one I mentioned before which was battery related, but I have already ruled that out so I have no more idea where to look. Thank you all anyway!

BL08 · Apr 4th, 2016, 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz

Another thing I can imagine that it must have a relay somewhere when I press the ignition button it must trigger a relay which is held in until the engine kicks in for that one or two seconds. I was thinking that if there is such relay it might be faulty. It just drives me crazy.

It was this comment that made me refer to the glow plugs (or more importantly - their clever gubbins) as a possibility and I think I have been misunderstood - not for the first or last time I suspect. I hope you get it sorted and I do understand your frustration. It could be worse - at least the car starts.

Laz · Apr 4th, 2016, 10:12

Hi BL08, you're right it might be anything, even the glow plugs but IMHO it's got nothing to do with them. Then again I'm not a car mechanic and have been proven wrong in the past a few times. Another thing you're right about is that at least the car works so it could be much worse. Actually everything else works just fine on the car and if it had been working like this from day 1 I probably wouldn't even notice it by now. I heard some older button start cars work this way by default (i.e. you have to hold the button until the engine kicks in). Typical first world problem I know.

Anyway once again I appreciate any comments and help whether or not any misunderstanding is involved on either part.

green van man · Apr 4th, 2016, 16:43

On my D4 2.4 5pot, the sequence is foot on clutch, press start button briefly. One of two things then happen, 1 if the car has been stood for a couple of days you will hear the fuel pump pressurising the system, it will then turn over and start. 2 if it has been recently run it will turn over and start.

However the clutch position is crucial, if it is not almost to the floor it will not turn over and a dash message, press clutch to start, appears on the dash. Depressing the clutch fully will allow the car to start and the message disappears.

Pressing the brake alone does not allow the car to start, though I often have to do so to relieve the epb, I seldome if ever use the drive through function to release the hand brake.
.
Given your problems and when they started I would suspect the clutch position sensor or something related to it. Did they change the clutch slave cylinder? As I believe it's a gearbox out job to do so, which may have other bearing on the problem.

My previous car, v70 TDI while not having cruse had a clutch position sensor that threw an engine management light up on the dash when it failed. I had to replace a sensor the car did not use to get rid of it.

Paul.

Laz · Apr 4th, 2016, 17:49

Hi Green Van Man, they only changed the slave cylinder they haven't touched the master, I can't even dare thinking how much they'd have charge me for that...
I have tested the clutch sensor and it seems to be working fine in this sense. In neutral I pressed it halfway and tried to start the engine. Nothing. Then pressed it a bit more. Nothing. Only when it was fully depressed it allowed me to start the engine as per your description. Also as I said before I tested the clutch sensor with the cruise control and it stopped the cruise control when it was pressed halfway. It shows that the clutch sensor can distinguish between being halfway and fully pressed hence it is more than likely working fine. Unless it can be adjusted and has been misaligned/adjusted.
Whichever "brain" part of the car controls the starting sequence or any of the sensors reporting to this "brain" are probably to blame. I might end up agreeing with the Volvo technician who blamed the starter control unit where the key goes. I don't know if that controls what happens when or it's just a button and keyhole/immobilizer sensor. Anyway I hope he's not right because it would cost a fortune to change I guess.
Thank you for the suggestions!

Apr 3rd, 2016, 05:20	#13
BL08 VOC Member Last Online: Jan 6th, 2024 16:59 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Staffordshire	Glow plugs I think that the immediate delay at the start of the process is your glow plugs heating up before the engine is actually turned over. Clearly that will take longer on really cold mornings and must be controlled by some clever gubbins somewhere. Whether that's related to your issue with the button though.... __________________ Current - 2008 V70 SE Lux D5 185, 2005 XC70 SE D5 163. Previous - 2003 V40 SE 2.0 T,1997 940 CLASSIC 2.3 HPT Estate, 1996 940 SE 2.3 HPT Estate, 1993 940 S 2.0 Estate.

Apr 3rd, 2016, 13:46	#15
Sasha94 The Dumb Blonde Last Online: Mar 17th, 2019 10:58 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Bangor, Gwynedd	I'm not sure the glow plugs have much to do with this; on the 2 136ps 2.0D's I had before the D5 I never saw the glow plug light, they don't do much on modern diesels until below freezing. On my D5, if it's cold outside the procedure is much the same as the OP, touch the button and wait. Sometimes there's a split second wait after releasing the button but no matter what, it always spins the starter motor over enough to start the car then stops by itself. I wonder if an experiment could be conducted to see how the start button on the OP's car is working? I mean as in remove fuel to the engine and press the button. Will the engine keep turning over or will the OP have perfect control of the SM? My point being that it would seem some programming is involved here to spin the starter until the engine fires, I wonder if this is not clutch related and has something to do with the wiring to the starter motor. It's a very bad idea to try this with fuel still flowing into the injectors but I know if you press the button on my D5 with the engine running the starter motor won't spin; it knows it's already running. If your car isn't engaging this computer control to spin the starter for say 10 seconds or until the engine starts whichever comes first and you have total control of the starter then there is the possibility that you could continue to press the button once the engine is running and still spin the starter. This would pinpoint the fault but it's not a good idea to do, hence I wonder about testing in a scenario you know won't start the engine. Re cruise, having an auto, I can't help there, I can only confirm that the brake pedal on my car disengages the cruise as soon as it is pressed. __________________ 2014 Skoda Octavia vRS with loads of toys! ex 2012 V50 1.6D DRIVe SE Lux, 2008 XC70 D5 AWD SE Geartronic, 2004 S40 2.0D SE, 2008 C30 1.6 S & 2000 C70 2.0T

Mar 31st, 2016, 18:09	#11
Laz New Member Last Online: Jul 25th, 2023 22:04 Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Bristol	They checked their service log this morning for me and said that the software hasn't been updated. Mine works exactly the same way as you have described yours press clutch (gear on mine does not seem to matter, that's why you need to press clutch) then press button once. Thanks for the input.

Apr 2nd, 2016, 10:43	#12
Laz New Member Last Online: Jul 25th, 2023 22:04 Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Bristol	I have tried everything I could imagine yesterday. Disconnected the battery for 3 hrs, just to reset everything. Didn't help. Tried second key, didn't help. Checked every fuse in the car I knew about, all seemed fine. I might be wrong but I still don't think the ignition problem has anything to do with the actual switch or the starter switch/key unit or whatever it's called. Also it seems way too coincidental that this problem appeared after the dealer had my car for 10 days. Never before and from the very moment I have collected my car from them. Could it have anything to do with the clutch pedal sensor? It works in a sense that it would not ignite without the clutch being depressed but as far as I know that sensor also senses how far the pedal has been pushed in. Could they have put it back somehow the wrong way so it records wrong readings hence affecting the ignition? Also read somewhere that it might got some brake/clutch fluid on which can also affect it's readings. That's why they changed the master cylinder in my car because it was leaking. Any ideas anyone? I tried to remove the clutch sensor but it seems like it's a job for the great Houdini. I could not squeeze my hands in any further than just to touch it. I could not remove it to have a look at it. I'm sure there is a way I just could not figure it out yesterday also had not much time to play around with it. Another thing I can imagine that it must have a relay somewhere when I press the ignition button it must trigger a relay which is held in until the engine kicks in for that one or two seconds. I was thinking that if there is such relay it might be faulty. It just drives me crazy.

Apr 3rd, 2016, 09:12	#14
Laz New Member Last Online: Jul 25th, 2023 22:04 Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Bristol	Hi BL08. The dealer thought the same as you that my problem was the delay because of the glow plugs. That's not the problem. I've had a push button start car before this for 5 years so I got used to this. That was a Laguna, and on that sometimes I pressed the button and had to wait 4-5 seconds before something happened. So I'm not bothered about that, that's normal. My problem is that I have to keep the button depressed until the engine is running. Because the weather is not so cold now as soon as I touch the button the starter motor starts but if I release it before the engine kicks in the starter motor stops. Before it was enough just to basically touch the button for a very short moment and the starter motor did it's job automatically, it turned until the engine started. I don't know how else to explain it. I used to get in the car pressed the clutch and the start button and immediately started to put on my seat belt. By the time I put the seat belt on the engine was running. I use my left hand to press the button and to put my seat belt on. Now I get in the car as per my routine I press the button once and reach for the seat belt and realize that the starter motor and starting procedure stopped at the very moment I release the button. So I have to push the button, hold it for about 2 seconds (as in a key operated car you turn it and hold it until it kicks in, then release it) wait for the engine to kick in, then proceed with my "rituals". I hope it's more clear now. Anyway I appreciate you're trying to help, I'm open to any suggestions. Yesterday I played around with the clutch sensor I took the car out for a ride on a long empty road and put on cruise control and pressed the clutch and it had to go in about 1/3 way before the cruise control stopped. With the brake pedal I just have to touch it. I can't remember if this was the case before they fixed my clutch and if it's normal or not. It might have something to do with my problem and also it can be something totally else.

Apr 3rd, 2016, 17:30	#16
Laz New Member Last Online: Jul 25th, 2023 22:04 Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Bristol	Thank you Sasha94. I think my only option now is to wait another two weeks and see what the main dealer has to say about this. If I find the solution I'll post it here for others to learn from. The only one report about the exact same fault I found online was the one I mentioned before which was battery related, but I have already ruled that out so I have no more idea where to look. Thank you all anyway!

Apr 4th, 2016, 10:12	#18
Laz New Member Last Online: Jul 25th, 2023 22:04 Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Bristol	Hi BL08, you're right it might be anything, even the glow plugs but IMHO it's got nothing to do with them. Then again I'm not a car mechanic and have been proven wrong in the past a few times. Another thing you're right about is that at least the car works so it could be much worse. Actually everything else works just fine on the car and if it had been working like this from day 1 I probably wouldn't even notice it by now. I heard some older button start cars work this way by default (i.e. you have to hold the button until the engine kicks in). Typical first world problem I know. Anyway once again I appreciate any comments and help whether or not any misunderstanding is involved on either part.

Apr 4th, 2016, 16:43	#19
green van man Premier Member Last Online: Apr 11th, 2024 09:21 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Ffos y Ffin	On my D4 2.4 5pot, the sequence is foot on clutch, press start button briefly. One of two things then happen, 1 if the car has been stood for a couple of days you will hear the fuel pump pressurising the system, it will then turn over and start. 2 if it has been recently run it will turn over and start. However the clutch position is crucial, if it is not almost to the floor it will not turn over and a dash message, press clutch to start, appears on the dash. Depressing the clutch fully will allow the car to start and the message disappears. Pressing the brake alone does not allow the car to start, though I often have to do so to relieve the epb, I seldome if ever use the drive through function to release the hand brake. . Given your problems and when they started I would suspect the clutch position sensor or something related to it. Did they change the clutch slave cylinder? As I believe it's a gearbox out job to do so, which may have other bearing on the problem. My previous car, v70 TDI while not having cruse had a clutch position sensor that threw an engine management light up on the dash when it failed. I had to replace a sensor the car did not use to get rid of it. Paul.

Apr 4th, 2016, 17:49	#20
Laz New Member Last Online: Jul 25th, 2023 22:04 Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Bristol	Hi Green Van Man, they only changed the slave cylinder they haven't touched the master, I can't even dare thinking how much they'd have charge me for that... I have tested the clutch sensor and it seems to be working fine in this sense. In neutral I pressed it halfway and tried to start the engine. Nothing. Then pressed it a bit more. Nothing. Only when it was fully depressed it allowed me to start the engine as per your description. Also as I said before I tested the clutch sensor with the cruise control and it stopped the cruise control when it was pressed halfway. It shows that the clutch sensor can distinguish between being halfway and fully pressed hence it is more than likely working fine. Unless it can be adjusted and has been misaligned/adjusted. Whichever "brain" part of the car controls the starting sequence or any of the sensors reporting to this "brain" are probably to blame. I might end up agreeing with the Volvo technician who blamed the starter control unit where the key goes. I don't know if that controls what happens when or it's just a button and keyhole/immobilizer sensor. Anyway I hope he's not right because it would cost a fortune to change I guess. Thank you for the suggestions!

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