Seriously?

[loki_the_glt]

Originally Posted by BicycleBoy

Oh lordy I don't think I can take many more overpriced 240s...
https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1439213
If I was in the mood for dropping twelve big ones on a 240 (which I'm not), this one is a bit nicer:
https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk...3-ce13f393afe6
I'm off to ogle some affordable Amazons...

Yes, but the gunmetal one has "up and down windows". As opposed to sliding back and forwards ones? That feature must be worth something.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Yes indeed James, all motor cars become more bloated over time as we demand more and more. As I replied to you above, the Golf Mk1 was just 790kg, so a 71% increase in 48 years (I know, only the name is the same).

:-)

Alan

.......... but does it still sound like a Golf?

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

.......... but does it still sound like a Golf?

Wasn't that a VW advertisement from back in the day?

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Wasn't that a VW advertisement from back in the day?

Alan

It was indeed.

I was thinking "If it looks like a Golf and sounds like a Golf..........." but seriously, all the cars that we knew as small cars when we were younger like the Mini, Fiesta, Golf etc are all now bloated facsimiles of their former incarnations and generally no longer fit the bill of "small car" except perhaps on occupant space.
The new Mini Countryman is nearly as long as my 760 but has less space inside, the new Golfs are bloated Teutonic Euro-blobs with no character and the Fiesta has overdosed on Sushi - a few years back i was semi-surprised my Rover left a Focus (or Fiesta) ST standing when it tried to leave me behind. Don't get me wrong, the Rover is a quick car in its own right but i expected the Ford to be quicker as it allegedly had 200bhp in a much smaller and presumably lighter shell. Turns out it was heavier than the Rover and if that engine was pushing 200bhp then my Rover had to be nudging 230-240bhp.
Go back to when the Rover was first new (1994) and we were just about into the Mk3 Fiesta that was still a relatively slender weight.

I'm not sure that people actually want most of the gadgets and gizmos fitted to cars these days and also, much of the extra weight is from IEDs fitted everywhere in the cabin under the guise of Safety Restraint Systems aka airbags. I wonder what the weight difference would be between a standard model (Golf, Fiesta, Mini etc) and those with stripped out interiors with only the basic running gear (including half a ton of electronics) to enable them to go and stop would be?

[Steve 940]

Fully agree Dave.

I came over to the old Volvo side, back to basics, some 9 months or so ago, basically fed up with all the electronics and gizmos that are great in theory, whilst they work!!!

Occasionally I have to drive the mother in laws Peugeot 5008 crossover thingy I think, absolutely ginormous on the outside, but miniscule inside, could hardly see out of the rear window using the rear mirror, and blind spots all over the place. No wonder it has all the damn buzzers and safety gizmos when being overtaken, as you can't damn well see out of it.

Volvo 940 estate is like driving heaven after that, not many cars have better all round vision, a pretty basic plus for safety.

Don't even get me going on Stop/Start........😀😀👍

Cheers
Steve

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Fully agree Dave.

Don't even get me going on Stop/Start........😀😀👍

Cheers
Steve

... I certainly agree about that Steve! Both the Porsche and the Skoda have Stop/Start, if I remember I turn it off. I recall taking the Skoda in for its first service and asking the manager whether it could be turned off (permanently)... she regretted it could not :-).

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

It was indeed.


... I'm not sure that people actually want most of the gadgets and gizmos fitted to cars these days and also, much of the extra weight is from IEDs fitted everywhere in the cabin under the guise of Safety Restraint Systems aka airbags. I wonder what the weight difference would be between a standard model (Golf, Fiesta, Mini etc) and those with stripped out interiors with only the basic running gear (including half a ton of electronics) to enable them to go and stop would be?

I'd agree Dave, but I'm not sure the market does. To a large extent people do have a choice about buying simpler motor cars if they want to - in that there is always the Dacia range (dated Renault designs I think). There is something of a popular vote for those simpler motor cars, but it does seem that most buyers prefer the to have all the bells and whistles - so most manufacturers supply cars like that.

:-)

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Fully agree Dave.

I came over to the old Volvo side, back to basics, some 9 months or so ago, basically fed up with all the electronics and gizmos that are great in theory, whilst they work!!!

Occasionally I have to drive the mother in laws Peugeot 5008 crossover thingy I think, absolutely ginormous on the outside, but miniscule inside, could hardly see out of the rear window using the rear mirror, and blind spots all over the place. No wonder it has all the damn buzzers and safety gizmos when being overtaken, as you can't damn well see out of it.

Volvo 940 estate is like driving heaven after that, not many cars have better all round vision, a pretty basic plus for safety.

Don't even get me going on Stop/Start........😀😀👍

Cheers
Steve

I had to nip to Brandon yesterday Steve and parked in Tesco car park. Returned to the car a few minutes later to see a couple getting out of a 2011 plate Audi. The gent remarked to the driver that it was "a lovely old Volvo" to which she replied "You can't go wrong with an old Volvo!".

Many moons ago i worked in a Pugrot main dealer, very poorly designed things, ditto for all Citroen models since they merged to form PSA in the mid-70s.
I've also had many near misses due to brake malfunctions on new/near-new PSA vehicles and as such wouldn't give one driveway space.

However i take your point about visibility, a close friend of mine has a 2017 Audi A1 and the visibility is terrible. I've never driven it but even as a passenger, you notice how good (or bad) things like visibility are.

Originally Posted by Othen

I'd agree Dave, but I'm not sure the market does. To a large extent people do have a choice about buying simpler motor cars if they want to - in that there is always the Dacia range (dated Renault designs I think). There is something of a popular vote for those simpler motor cars, but it does seem that most buyers prefer the to have all the bells and whistles - so most manufacturers supply cars like that.

:-)

Alan

I think you're right Alan, marketing over the masses. It makes them believe they do actually want all these things that they then find they never use. Referring again to my friends A1, it has built in sat-nag but she's never used it preferring to use Gaggle Mops on her phone instead.

As for Dacia, in the 70s they were building Renault 12s under licence from Renault including if memory serves, a van variant and also a 4x4 that was in fact closer to a Lada Cossack but powered by Renault mechanicals. These days because of the tie-up with GM and Nissan, many Dacias feature components from those ranges too such as Nissan Micra tail lights on one particular Duster model (the name used by Dacia in the 70s for their "Renault 12-a-like") so while they're still simpler, they're a generation or two behind the general confusion we currently have in new cars.

I've not driven a car with start-stop but i know it would annoy the living daylights out of me but as for the other bells'n'whistles such as one-touch down and up on all electric windows should be standard on cars these days. I've had 1986 registered cars with that feature on as standard so there isn't an excuse but neither my Volvo 760 nor the Jag has that feature. Also what i've come to know as "Lazy Locking" where all windows and sunroof can be closed when the car is locked. Again, i've had 1986 cars with that on but the 760 doesn't, the Jag does but you have to use the key rather than fob or key. I don't know of any newer cars with these features on so to my mind, manufacturers are missing the point somewhat.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I think you're right Alan, marketing over the masses. It makes them believe they do actually want all these things that they then find they never use. Referring again to my friends A1, it has built in sat-nag but she's never used it preferring to use Gaggle Mops on her phone instead.

As for Dacia, in the 70s they were building Renault 12s under licence from Renault including if memory serves, a van variant and also a 4x4 that was in fact closer to a Lada Cossack but powered by Renault mechanicals. These days because of the tie-up with GM and Nissan, many Dacias feature components from those ranges too such as Nissan Micra tail lights on one particular Duster model (the name used by Dacia in the 70s for their "Renault 12-a-like") so while they're still simpler, they're a generation or two behind the general confusion we currently have in new cars.

I've not driven a car with start-stop but i know it would annoy the living daylights out of me but as for the other bells'n'whistles such as one-touch down and up on all electric windows should be standard on cars these days. I've had 1986 registered cars with that feature on as standard so there isn't an excuse but neither my Volvo 760 nor the Jag has that feature. Also what i've come to know as "Lazy Locking" where all windows and sunroof can be closed when the car is locked. Again, i've had 1986 cars with that on but the 760 doesn't, the Jag does but you have to use the key rather than fob or key. I don't know of any newer cars with these features on so to my mind, manufacturers are missing the point somewhat.

Yes Dave, it is mostly down to marketing. 40 years ago people didn't know they needed alloy wheels and air conditioning, now it would be hard to buy a motor car (except perhaps a Dacia) without those things. Do we need either? Of course not, but that is what the market believes it wants.

Do we need all the bells and whistles that come with modern motor cars? I'd had the Skoda for 5 years (from new) before I realised the electric mirrors folded up for parking, I was even more surprised to find they did so remotely from the remote :-). Did I need that feature? Of course not - I'd lived for 5 years without it, but now I know it is there it is actually quite useful and I use it every time I park.

The Skoda and the Porsche both have the 'lazy locking' feature. On the Porsche this includes closing the convertible hood, the windows, locking the car and folding the mirrors all remotely from the key fob. Now that is a nice party trick in Morrison's car park.

:-)

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Yes Dave, it is mostly down to marketing. 40 years ago people didn't know they needed alloy wheels and air conditioning, now it would be hard to buy a motor car (except perhaps a Dacia) without those things. Do we need either? Of course not, but that is what the market believes it wants.

Do we need all the bells and whistles that come with modern motor cars? I'd had the Skoda for 5 years (from new) before I realised the electric mirrors folded up for parking, I was even more surprised to find they did so remotely from the remote :-). Did I need that feature? Of course not - I'd lived for 5 years without it, but now I know it is there it is actually quite useful and I use it every time I park.

The Skoda and the Porsche both have the 'lazy locking' feature. On the Porsche this includes closing the convertible hood, the windows, locking the car and folding the mirrors all remotely from the key fob. Now that is a nice party trick in Morrison's car park.

:-)

Interesting points there Alan, especially concerning alloy wheels and aircon. Going back 40 years, alloys were standard fit on most of the top end cars, especially in the top of the range model and AC began to be standard on top end cars then too. This has gradually filtered down through the ranges as it has become more affordable - economies of scale and all that.
Arguably speaking, because AC is more fuel efficient than driving with the window open, you could say we all need AC but very few people actually know how to use it to its fullest potential.
Slightly harder to justify alloys except they're allegedly lighter than steel rims and therefore offer more economy because of the weight saving and improved handling through reducing the unsprung weight. We've had the discussion before about alloys being lighter, it's possible that back in the 70s when the "fact" first originated, thicker steel was used to produce steel wheels and therefore they would have been heavier.

The facility to power-fold the door mirrors remotely is a good one and one that i'd use if any of my cars had it. I'd only had the Volvo a month or two when the drivers door mirror was taken out by some idiot in a tractor/trailer combo doing about 40mph down Main St (30mph limit) so i was lucky it wasn't the whoel side of the car in a way but power-fold mirrors would have saved it.

I like the description of the lazy locking on your Porsche, my Jag has a similar thing if you hold the unlock button on the fob for an extra second after unlocking - it opens all 4 windows and the sunroof, again a nice party trick on a hot day. However it only has one-touch down on the drivers window, no one-touch up either! Swings and roundabouts i suppose!