240 General: New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Overall it would clearly be better to wire up the extra lamps as foglamps; that isn't essential though as this is mostly an aesthetic change. The deciding factor will probably be the way the existing switch is wired up as there is no point inventing work. When the H3 bulbs arrive I'll pull the facia off and have a look, my guess is that I'll end up with a shiny new set of front foglamps.

The big question is, are the lamps you have fog lamps or driving lamps?

This will dictate their use rather than the fitted position.

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The big question is, are the lamps you have fog lamps or driving lamps?

This will dictate their use rather than the fitted position.

If Alan will allow a small diversion, there does seem to be widespread confusion generally regarding additional lighting and it's use, 'L.S.'. Recently, you rightly corrected me when I referred to driving lamps as 'spot'( as opposed to 'fog') lamps. I do feel that the lighting C and U regs are ambiguous and open to misinterpretation.

Let me explain. My V70 is equipped with spoiler lights that I understand are officially classified as 'fog' lights, which, as such, may only be used in conditions of reduced visibility, fog, or falling snow.

In my view (pun intended), these are no brighter, cause no more dazzle and are no more intrusive than the DRLs fitted to some cars in a similar position. Why, then, is it legal and acceptable for such lights to be displayed on new cars so equipped, when that is not, as I understand it, so on cars like my own?

Would I be risk being pulled over and possible prosecution should I do so? Lord knows you need every lumen you can muster on ageing V70, particularly on rural roads with irregular edges and no markings. On those occasions when I have used my spoiler lights driving on such roads I have never been 'flashed' nor, as far as I am aware, otherwise incurred the wrath of another road user!

Regards, John.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

If Alan will allow a small diversion, there does seem to be widespread confusion generally regarding additional lighting and it's use, 'L.S.'. Recently, you rightly corrected me when I referred to driving lamps as 'spot'( as opposed to 'fog') lamps. I do feel that the lighting C and U regs are ambiguous and open to misinterpretation.

Let me explain. My V70 is equipped with spoiler lights that I understand are officially classified as 'fog' lights, which, as such, may only be used in conditions of reduced visibility, fog, or falling snow.

In my view (pun intended), these are no brighter, cause no more dazzle and are no more intrusive than the DRLs fitted to some cars in a similar position. Why, then, is it legal and acceptable for such lights to be displayed on new cars so equipped, when that is not, as I understand it, so on cars like my own?

Would I be risk being pulled over and possible prosecution should I do so? Lord knows you need every lumen you can muster on ageing V70, particularly on rural roads with irregular edges and no markings. On those occasions when I have used my spoiler lights driving on such roads I have never been 'flashed' nor, as far as I am aware, otherwise incurred the wrath of another road user!

Regards, John.

You raise several intersting points there John, not least about the Destruction and Abuse regs as they are often called. The law on fog and driving lights is fairly clear, for brevity :

Driving Lights :

mounted equidistantly from the centre line of the car in pairs, if used singly, must be central or complemented by a similar fog light in the mirror image position.
No minimum/maximum heights etc
Wired only to work with main beam, switch optional
Lenses, mainly clear with some striations to diffuse the beam slightly

Fog Lights :

No more than 400mm in from the edge of the car, again mounted equidistantly about the centre line of the car in pairs (see note above for single front fog) and no higher than 1200mm from the road.
Ideally only wired to work with dipped beam but can work with sidelights, at one time should extinguish when main/full beam is used but i think that has changed these days. Switch and tell-tale mandatory
Lenses, heavily diffused with striations to give maximum beam spread


You mention the bumper-mounted DRLs that appear brighter than fog lamps. Technically, they're not. The cheapest/weakest halogen fog lamp 55W bulbs emit ~1000Lm, the better ones ~16-1800Lm. The DRLs are restricted to a maximum of 800Lm.
Why, you may (and probably will) ask, do the DRLs seem so much brighter? The answer to that is in fact, very simple. The fog lights have a beam spread of ~160 degrees but the DRLs are restricted to 20 degrees. Imagine 800Lm in a 20 degree beam spread, the light intensity will be much greater. Even a 1600Lm fog light will be spread over ~160 degrees so although not an official measurement, it can be seen (no pun intended despite it being a good one i think) that DRLs give 40Lm/degree but fog lights give 10Lm/degree - this is better explained with the older unit of light, the Candela where it actually measures the usable light output. With ultrabright LEDs,the yave a beam of 16-20 degrees and can be rated at something in the order of 16000mcd but an apparently small amount of Lumen. Conversely a diffused LED will be rated at say 8000mcd but the same amount of Lumens.

An easier to understand analogy would be lifting a 40lb weight with air pressure. If the pneumatic piston lifting the weight had an area of 1" squared, it would need 40psi (40 pounds/square inch) to lift that weight. If the weight had an area of 40 square inches (eg 5 x 8 inches) and the piston had the same, you would only need one pound of air pressure to lift it. It's kind of back to front to the lightig but i think you get the idea.

As for using your fog lights, i also do similar in rural roads. When i took my test, fog lights should only be used in fog (obviously! ), heavy rain or falling snow. That appears to have "migrated" over time to "reduced visibility" but there does not appear to be a definition of "reduced visibility".
My argument for using fog lights on rural roads, even on clear nights, is that with no edge markings, an irregular edge that has often crumbled into the soft verge and usually no centre markings either is that it helps identify the edge of the road as the light from the standard dipped beam isnt sufficient in that area to see the edge, because of its irregularity and often being the same colour as the verge because of rain and/or mud where it shouldn't be.
I am quite often flashed in the 760 using the front fogs because they are the higher of the two inboard lamps in the headlight units, some intellectually bankrupt idiots think they are full beam and consequently get an eyeful of full beam which they don't like at all! "They don't like it up 'em Cap'n Mainwaring!"

Concerning your V70, am i right in thinking they are plastic lenses? If so, have they developed cataracts? Removing them with T-Cut and a drill-mounted polishing pad then buffing once they've gone hazy works very well. There are many other options including bespoke headlight rejuvination kits but they all feature some fine abrasive to polish the cloudiness off the lenses.

https://youtu.be/UG54xt56uZo

That video is worth a watch to get the idea and it does help a lot. There are many methods, all seem to work to a greater or lesser extent. If your V70 is anything like my Jag, dipped beam is more or less useless because of the plastic lenses. Some months ago i removed and polished the lenses while fitting an adjuster repair kit and gained a beam pattern and better visibility, however they're still not great and once it's through the MoT, i will be investing in some LED headlamp bulbs just to get some light on the road! Obviously once a year i'll have to revert to incandescent bulbs again for the MoT but at least i'll be able to drive safely for the other 364 days of the year!

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The big question is, are the lamps you have fog lamps or driving lamps?

This will dictate their use rather than the fitted position.

Originally Posted by john.wigley

If Alan will allow a small diversion, there does seem to be widespread confusion generally regarding additional lighting and it's use, 'L.S.'. Recently, you rightly corrected me when I referred to driving lamps as 'spot'( as opposed to 'fog') lamps. I do feel that the lighting C and U regs are ambiguous and open to misinterpretation.

Let me explain. My V70 is equipped with spoiler lights that I understand are officially classified as 'fog' lights, which, as such, may only be used in conditions of reduced visibility, fog, or falling snow.

In my view (pun intended), these are no brighter, cause no more dazzle and are no more intrusive than the DRLs fitted to some cars in a similar position. Why, then, is it legal and acceptable for such lights to be displayed on new cars so equipped, when that is not, as I understand it, so on cars like my own?

Would I be risk being pulled over and possible prosecution should I do so? Lord knows you need every lumen you can muster on ageing V70, particularly on rural roads with irregular edges and no markings. On those occasions when I have used my spoiler lights driving on such roads I have never been 'flashed' nor, as far as I am aware, otherwise incurred the wrath of another road user!

Regards, John.

If you don't mind me say so Dave, that is a bit of nonsense. I don't believe there is anything in the legal definition that required the lenses of luminaires used as driving lights to be 'mainly clear with some striations' and those used as foglamps to be 'heavily diffused with striations'; if there was such a regulation the legal distinction between 'some striations' and 'heavily diffused with striations would be impossible to enforce. I'm also pretty certain there is no requirement for foglamps to be wired only to work with dipped beam (if that ever was a rule it must have been done away with decades ago).I say this for a number of reasons:

a. The factory fitted foglamps on my Skoda Superb are absolutely smooth with no striations at all. They are also wired to stay on when both main and dipped beams are selected.

b. All the aftermarket extra lamps I see are sold as fog/driving lamps.

c. The pair I have in the spares shed have striations, but who is to say they have some or lots? No one, is the answer.

The lamps I have would be perfectly usable as either driving or foglamps; the only defining factors will be where I mount them (and I favour the low position like the ad I posted a link to above) and how I wire them up (on the high beam only for driving, but both beams is fine for foglamps).

John,

I agree with absolutely about DRLs fitted low down on many modern cars. They differ only in that they have no separate switch from your foglamps. I believe the interpretation of the rules by state agencies and the police is now very flexible as a result, and there would be no possibility of a prosecution if one drove round with the front foglamps switched on during the midday sun (but not the high intensity rear lamp - although some drivers ignore that).

I don't think this is anywhere near as complex as people are making out chaps: if I fit the lamps I have low and with a switch that controls them with both high and dipped beam they will be foglamps; if I put them a bit higher and switched with the high beam only they will be driving lamps. That is all.

I'll have a look at the existing switch wiring when I have a mo, but almost certainly fit the luminaires as foglamps because I prefer the aesthetic.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

If you don't mind me say so Dave, that is a bit of nonsense. I don't believe there is anything in the legal definition that required the lenses of luminaires used as driving lights to be 'mainly clear with some striations' and those used as foglamps to be 'heavily diffused with striations'; if there was such a regulation the legal distinction between 'some striations' and 'heavily diffused with striations would be impossible to enforce. I'm also pretty certain there is no requirement for foglamps to be wired only to work with dipped beam (if that ever was a rule it must have been done away with decades ago).I say this for a number of reasons:

a. The factory fitted foglamps on my Skoda Superb are absolutely smooth with no striations at all. They are also wired to stay on when both main and dipped beams are selected.

b. All the aftermarket extra lamps I see are sold as fog/driving lamps.

c. The pair I have in the spares shed have striations, but who is to say they have some or lots? No one, is the answer.

The lamps I have would be perfectly usable as either driving or foglamps; the only defining factors will be where I mount them (and I favour the low position like the ad I posted a link to above) and how I wire them up (on the high beam only for driving, but both beams is fine for foglamps).

John,

I agree with absolutely about DRLs fitted low down on many modern cars. They differ only in that they have no separate switch from your foglamps. I believe the interpretation of the rules by state agencies and the police is now very flexible as a result, and there would be no possibility of a prosecution if one drove round with the front foglamps switched on during the midday sun (but not the high intensity rear lamp - although some drivers ignore that).

I don't think this is anywhere near as complex as people are making out chaps: if I fit the lamps I have low and with a switch that controls them with both high and dipped beam they will be foglamps; if I put them a bit higher and switched with the high beam only they will be driving lamps. That is all.

I'll have a look at the existing switch wiring when I have a mo, but almost certainly fit the luminaires as foglamps because I prefer the aesthetic.

The important words preceded the some/heavily striated bit Alan, "for brevity".

I was trying, in as few words as possible, to explain the difference between a fog and a driving lamp lens. If you use driving lamps in fog, no matter how low they are mounted, all you will get is glare from the fog.

Also as i pointed out, i'm fairly certain at one point front fogs could only come on with dipped or side lights, not main beam. As i also said and you pointed out, this seems to have fallen by the wayside these days.

This is part of the C&U regs, there are other "Tables" and "Schedules" to cross reference but covers most of what i said and confirms it :

(Regulation 20)
SCHEDULE 6requirements relating to optional front fog lamps

1. Number–

(a) Any vehicle not covered by sub-paragraph (b):
No requirement

(b) A motor vehicle, other than a motor bicycle or motor bicycle combination, first used on or after 1st April 1991:
Not more than two

2. Position–

(a) Longitudinal:
No requirement

(b) Lateral–

(i)Where a pair of front fog lamps is used in conditions of seriously reduced visibility in place of the obligatory dipped beam headlamps–

Maximum distance from side of vehicle:

400 mm

(ii)in all other cases:
No requirement

(c) Vertical–

(i)Maximum height above the ground–

(A)Any vehicle not covered by sub-paragraph (B):
1200 mm

(B)An agricultural vehicle, a road clearance vehicle, an aerodrome fire tender, an aerodrome runway sweeper, an industrial tractor, engineering plant and a home forces' vehicle:
No requirement

(ii)Minimum height above the ground:
No requirement

3. Angles of visibility:
No requirement

4. Alignment:
To the front and so aimed that the upper edge of the beam is, as near as practicable, 3 per cent below the horizontal when the vehicle is at its kerbside weight and has a weight of 75 kg on the driver’s seat

5. Markings–

(a) A vehicle first used on or after 1st April 1986:
An approval mark

(b) A vehicle first used before 1st April 1986:
No requirement

6. Size of illuminated area:
No requirement

7. Colour:
White or yellow

8. Wattage:
No requirement

9. Intensity:
No requirement

10. Electrical connections:
No individual requirement

11. Tell-tale:
No requirement

12. Other requirements–

Every front fog lamp shall be so constructed that the direction of the beam of light emitted therefrom can be adjusted whilst the vehicle is stationary.

13. Definitions–

In this Schedule “appproval mark” means either–
(a)

a marking designated as an approval mark by regulation 5 of the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations and shown at item 19 of Schedule 4 to those Regulations; or
(b)

a marking designated as an approval mark by regulation 4 of the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations and shown at item 19 or 19A of Schedule 2 of those Regulations.

....... and the source : https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/made

No doubt there is a section prescribing the beam pattern from a fog lamp (which by extension will dictate the lens pattern) somewhere but i'm not going to hunt it down.

Suffice to say what i already said above, emphasis on the "for brevity" part as i was taking certain "artistic licence" with the words to convey the meaning to avoid typing too much!

[Bob 1967]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Concerning your V70, am i right in thinking they are plastic lenses? If so, have they developed cataracts? Removing them with T-Cut and a drill-mounted polishing pad then buffing once they've gone hazy works very well. There are many other options including bespoke headlight rejuvination kits but they all feature some fine abrasive to polish the cloudiness off the lenses.

https://youtu.be/UG54xt56uZo

That video is worth a watch to get the idea and it does help a lot. There are many methods, all seem to work to a greater or lesser extent. If your V70 is anything like my Jag, dipped beam is more or less useless because of the plastic lenses. Some months ago i removed and polished the lenses while fitting an adjuster repair kit and gained a beam pattern and better visibility, however they're still not great and once it's through the MoT, i will be investing in some LED headlamp bulbs just to get some light on the road! Obviously once a year i'll have to revert to incandescent bulbs again for the MoT but at least i'll be able to drive safely for the other 364 days of the year!

The missus had cars with plastic lenses, 1 Mercedes and 2 Toyotas. They were almost brown when the cars were purchased 2nd hand.
I used Toothpaste to clean them and they came up mint!

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The important words preceded the some/heavily striated bit Alan, "for brevity".

I was trying, in as few words as possible, to explain the difference between a fog and a driving lamp lens. If you use driving lamps in fog, no matter how low they are mounted, all you will get is glare from the fog.

Also as i pointed out, i'm fairly certain at one point front fogs could only come on with dipped or side lights, not main beam. As i also said and you pointed out, this seems to have fallen by the wayside these days.

This is part of the C&U regs, there are other "Tables" and "Schedules" to cross reference but covers most of what i said and confirms it :

(Regulation 20)
SCHEDULE 6requirements relating to optional front fog lamps

1. Number–

(a) Any vehicle not covered by sub-paragraph (b):
No requirement

(b) A motor vehicle, other than a motor bicycle or motor bicycle combination, first used on or after 1st April 1991:
Not more than two

2. Position–

(a) Longitudinal:
No requirement

(b) Lateral–

(i)Where a pair of front fog lamps is used in conditions of seriously reduced visibility in place of the obligatory dipped beam headlamps–

Maximum distance from side of vehicle:

400 mm

(ii)in all other cases:
No requirement

(c) Vertical–

(i)Maximum height above the ground–

(A)Any vehicle not covered by sub-paragraph (B):
1200 mm

(B)An agricultural vehicle, a road clearance vehicle, an aerodrome fire tender, an aerodrome runway sweeper, an industrial tractor, engineering plant and a home forces' vehicle:
No requirement

(ii)Minimum height above the ground:
No requirement

3. Angles of visibility:
No requirement

4. Alignment:
To the front and so aimed that the upper edge of the beam is, as near as practicable, 3 per cent below the horizontal when the vehicle is at its kerbside weight and has a weight of 75 kg on the driver’s seat

5. Markings–

(a) A vehicle first used on or after 1st April 1986:
An approval mark

(b) A vehicle first used before 1st April 1986:
No requirement

6. Size of illuminated area:
No requirement

7. Colour:
White or yellow

8. Wattage:
No requirement

9. Intensity:
No requirement

10. Electrical connections:
No individual requirement

11. Tell-tale:
No requirement

12. Other requirements–

Every front fog lamp shall be so constructed that the direction of the beam of light emitted therefrom can be adjusted whilst the vehicle is stationary.

13. Definitions–

In this Schedule “appproval mark” means either–
(a)

a marking designated as an approval mark by regulation 5 of the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations and shown at item 19 of Schedule 4 to those Regulations; or
(b)

a marking designated as an approval mark by regulation 4 of the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations and shown at item 19 or 19A of Schedule 2 of those Regulations.

....... and the source : https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/made

No doubt there is a section prescribing the beam pattern from a fog lamp (which by extension will dictate the lens pattern) somewhere but i'm not going to hunt it down.

Suffice to say what i already said above, emphasis on the "for brevity" part as i was taking certain "artistic licence" with the words to convey the meaning to avoid typing too much!

I was a bit abrupt in my previous Dave, apologies for that.

The good news is I've solved the mystery of the blue switch... report to follow after I've got a beer for myself and Dan.

[john.wigley]

Thank you, Alan and 'L.S.' both, for the explanation(s); both brief and in detail, 'L.S.'!

My apologies, chaps, if my innocent query inadvertently sparked a difference of opinion. That was never my intention; I was only attempting to clarify the position in my own mind.

I do rather like Bob's suggestion regarding using toothpaste to clean one's headlights. I always keep a few used toothbrushes in the garage - they come in handy for so many things! I'll give it a try - we also buy Euthymol in bulk, so appropriating a tube for vehicular use would not be a problem. If all else fails, I'll look into polishing as 'L.S.' suggested.

At least with daylight now lengthening noticeably daily, time is on our side and the matter is rapidly becoming much less urgent.

Thank you all as usual for your contributions.

Regards, John.

[Othen]

Readers may recall there was a spare blue switch on the Barge's dash that appeared to have no function...



So, the back looked like this:



... and there was a neat and tidy loom (Volvo part I should think) leading to a very scabby metal clad relay by the busbar:



You may just be able to discern that the connection for pin 87 was missing completely, but a bit of elimination soon worked out what was supposed to happen:



There were a few issues: the fuse leading to terminal 30 was so corroded it didn't pass any current (a new fuse and a clean up soon sorted that), the light blue earth lead wasn't connected to anything (it is now) and the connection plus all the wiring to the non-existent driving lights were all missing.

I pulled through a new female spade connector to fit onto terminal 87 but found the 40 year old relay was dead.



... I wonder whether that was the reason someone removed the whole system some time in the past - just for the sake of a £3 relay? Fortunately I had a spare 4 pin relay (this one with a handy fuse):



So, that was all fixed pretty quickly and the tell-tale was working (on high beam only - perfect).



Just to prove the system working I hooked up one of the additional lamps I had in the spares shed (left over from the RB project) temporarily:



... let there be light.

Everything works just fine, and the interior is all put back together. All I need to do now is hang the two luminaires (which have become driving lamps rather than foglamps this afternoon) and run some supply and earth conductors. That will wait until the H3 LED bulbs arrive with the postie though.

[loki_the_glt]

Originally Posted by Bob 1967

The missus had cars with plastic lenses, 1 Mercedes and 2 Toyotas. They were almost brown when the cars were purchased 2nd hand.
I used Toothpaste to clean them and they came up mint!

Toothpaste has long, since at least the mid-1960s, been recommended for cleaning the cockpit transparencies on plastic kits (Airfix etc.), although the stuff might have been more abrasive in those days!