Volvo PV444 wins 1957 Petit Lemans at Lime Rock!

[blueosprey90]

https://youtu.be/dOxPCrDqVOE

Failed starter test

[Derek UK]

2nd one looks good. 1st one needs a new or refurbed solenoid.

[blueosprey90]

Because of the manner in which the starter seemed to malfunction as shown in the prior video (Post #251), I took the starter apart with my focus on the solenoid to try to determine why the starter gear would not thrust forward and engage.

Didn't take much to disassemble and what I found didn't look correct. Loose parts!



A look at the service manual and this was what I was supposed to see.



And this.




I reassembled the loose parts using thread lock on the yoke piece since the lock nut didn't seem to actually work.



The loud bang I heard had to be when the yoke piece let loose. That spring that sits behind it is quite powerful.


I had my share of difficulty with this throw out fork while reassembling and actually needed to reassemble the starter three times before I got it right. I was installing the throw out fork in the wrong orientation, and when I tightened everything down, the starter would bind. So it will pay to test fit this throw out fork to make sure it is centered correctly before final assembly.




This is the pivot screw that holds the throw out fork. When the fork is correctly oriented, it is easy to fit everything up.




Starter now seems to be working and is ready for me to install back into the car.

[blueosprey90]

Volvo Starter Fail!

Well, I installed the starter, but was unable to start the car. The starter spun the engine a revolution or two, but on second attempt seemed to short out. I pulled the starter and got it working on the bench. Then I reinstalled. Same deal, the starter spun the engine for a few seconds, but on second attempt would not engage - again seemed to short out. Checked and double checked all of the connections and the ground without any change. So I'm left to conclude that the starter is jamming on the flywheel. This probably means that my problem is more serious than the starter.

Current plan is to pull the plugs and try to spin the engine by hand while also trying also to determine what the flywheel is doing. My big bang sounded like a broken crank or a major shaft, and maybe my dreams of an easy fix are dashed.

[Derek UK]

Have you tried the other starter? The one that looked good in the video? You might have broken a tooth off the starter ring? Rotate and check.

[blueosprey90]

Starter woes, continued. I pulled the spark plugs and turned the engine by hand at the front pully dog nut. I felt some derangement scraping sound and my heart sank. But it was just the fan rubbing against the wrench.

Once I turned the engine, I was able to crank the engine with the starter. But it did "jam" or "short out" x 2. I needed to turn the engine again by hand again. This is suggesting ?? that I might have broken a tooth on the flywheel.

It was cold, I had other tasks, so I abandoned for the evening. In the meanwhile, a splice in the ignition wire separated, so I need to fix that as well.

Will try to figure out best way to examine and perhaps replace the flywheel.

[powen1]

Originally Posted by blueosprey90

Starter woes, continued. I pulled the spark plugs and turned the engine by hand at the front pully dog nut. I felt some derangement scraping sound and my heart sank. But it was just the fan rubbing against the wrench.

Once I turned the engine, I was able to crank the engine with the starter. But it did "jam" or "short out" x 2. I needed to turn the engine again by hand again. This is suggesting ?? that I might have broken a tooth on the flywheel.

It was cold, I had other tasks, so I abandoned for the evening. In the meanwhile, a splice in the ignition wire separated, so I need to fix that as well.

Will try to figure out best way to examine and perhaps replace the flywheel.

Blueosprey90

Suggestion - I believe their is a support alloy bracket between the bell housing and engine sump 6 bolts, take this off and you can see the bottom of the flywheel for checking
Paul

[blueosprey90]

Thank you Paul.

Since the starter only wants to work intermittently, and in accordance with your advice, I pulled the bottom bell housing cover to examine the flywheel. The teeth on the flywheel had some crush damage from the starter bendix gear crashing into them, but no broken teeth or other obvious damage.

So I have to conclude that it is the starter that is not functioning properly under load. My plan is to swap in the spare starter, but I won’t be able to get to that for at least two weeks.

[blueosprey90]

My starter woes continue!

I had a failed starter due to an internal derangement of the connection between the solenoid and the bendix. See post #251 for video and #253 for pictures.

I got it pieced back together, but when I put it in the car, it only worked intermittently. Meaning that when I pushed the start button, sometimes the engine would spin, and then it would not. I also used a bump start push button switch under the hook to the same effect. Sometimes it would engage the starter and sometimes it would just be dead - i.e., no response.

I pulled the bottom cover off the flywheel as suggested by Paul and could see no evidence of jamming of the flywheel with the bendix.

Thinking the solenoid on the original starter had been damaged, I replaced the starter with one of my spares last night. No success!

The battery had been on a trickle charger so should have been fully charged. The plugs are out, so no compression for the starter to overcome.

I have an ignition switch bypass button under the dash to start the car without fully engaging the starter switch due to the gorilla spring problem. But that bypass button is hot and allows the starter to turn over even if the key is not engaged. It is much like my push button bump starter that I connect to the solenoid and to the positive on the battery to bump over the engine from under the hood.

My ignition switch bypass button appears to be fused with a 20 amp fuse.
Last night, attempting to turn over the engine to test the second starter, that fuse blew. And my push button bump starter for under the hood also did not engage the starter (so maybe that has burned out!).

There are only three wires to the starter. A hot wire directly from the battery. Then a wire connected to the same terminal that I suspect brings power from the battery via the starter post to the rest of the car. The only other wire is that fused wire from the battery to the push button start switch to the battery.

I can't imagine that I have these wired wrong so as to cause a short, but I suppose that is possible, so I will double check.

But what I'm, thinking is that I have a short in the battery. Is that possible and how to test?

When the auto recovery service came to get the car, the fellow put a 12 volt battery pack on the 6 volt battery to see if he could get the car to start. I winced at the thought, but allowed him to proceed on the theory that he knew more than me. Of course, since the starter was broken, it spun the starter but not the engine.

My battery is a new (1 year old) Optima 6 Volt Red Top battery. I'm thinking it was shorted when the 12 volt power pack was applied. I'm not sure why that would blow the 20 amp fuse, but that is my current hypothesis.

Any theories on how can I test the battery?

[Ron Kwas]

bo90:

"when I pushed the start button, sometimes the engine would spin, and then it would not."...that suggests either insufficient solenoid Armature excursion (unlikely this would/could be intermittent), but more likely an intermittent contact at the High Current Contact of the Sol. Is it possible to disassemble the early style Sols as it is the later 12V Sols to check the mechanical state of things and also extent of carbonization of the HCC and its associated Contacts? That's what I'd do next...

(Ref: https://www.sw-em.com/starter.htm#bo...arter_solenoid )

Regarding applying 12V to a 6V Starter (Ref: https://www.sw-em.com/Vintage_Volvo_...conversion.htm ) ...it is possible and even allowed in a pinch, and will cause the Starter to run like gangbusters, which, if all else is OK, will result in starting, but does immediately also bring to mind the saying "burning the candle twice as bright but for half as long..."...what should not be done IMO, is to apply 12V from another Battery, capable of supplying A LOT of Current, in parallel with your super groovy and expensive 6V Gel or AGM Batt, also capable of supplying A LOT of Current...that is not doing either Batt ANY favors! If it was my (charged) 6V Batt, I wouldn't allow it!

Cheers