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Does road camber affect steering?

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Old Jun 14th, 2021, 23:55   #11
Laird Scooby
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Thanks All

In the end I telephoned National Tyres, who'd supplied and fitted my new tyre and had originally done the alignment. They promptly offered to re-check the alignment this afternoon, and 20 minutes later returned the car to me saying that it was all sorted.

And indeed it is totally sorted. The steering wheel now sits exactly true, and the steering feels as light (and as barge-like!) as it ever did.

The Depot Manager said that possibly the fact that they'd had to heat one of the locking nuts last time might have influenced things, possibly the car has settled on its suspension in the intervening weeks, or possibly the fact that it's an old car with old nuts and bolts just all added up to the steering wheel not quite lining up true last time out. He also said that sometimes they don't get it right first time, but they're always only too happy to check and re-adjust if needs be. You can't say fairer than that.

Whatever, I absolutely believe that it's not what happens it what you do about it that counts, so full marks to National Tyres Selby for their excellent customer service.

They did say that although the two front tyres are different (Cooper and Avon) the two brands are actually made by the same factory on the same production lines, and are very similar - and certainly, it's hard to tell the tread patterns apart. They reckon it unlikely that this of itself would be enough to cause the issue, and the difference in tread depth is too marginal to matter.

Thanks for all the comments - as ever, this site is a mine of really useful information and insight.

Cheers

Jack
I've highlighted what i think is the real answer Jack, fair play for them actually admitting that as too many places don't and will try to blame the equipment. You should have a fairly positive "centre-feel" on the steering now as well?
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Old Jun 15th, 2021, 13:34   #12
capt jack
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Thanks Dave.

Yes, the steering feels great now. The manager at National was very open, saying that setting up wheel alignment especially on older cars can be tricky. Suspension settles a bit, bolts can be hard to undo, and sometimes it takes them a couple of goes to get it right.

He did sort of blame the technology - the whizzy new computerised 4-wheel system is apparently extremely sensitive, and he prefers using the older generation of light beams. He said that the new technology is so sensitive that even the vibration through the ramp from the car's engine running can affect the readout. Also he's nowhere to hide as the system has a display in the waiting area, and you're given a printout of the result - which displays the angles to the nearest minute of arc.

As someone who's having to adapt to new technology at work too I can sympathise!

Cheers

Jack
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Old Jun 15th, 2021, 14:19   #13
Laird Scooby
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Thanks Dave.

Yes, the steering feels great now. The manager at National was very open, saying that setting up wheel alignment especially on older cars can be tricky. Suspension settles a bit, bolts can be hard to undo, and sometimes it takes them a couple of goes to get it right.

He did sort of blame the technology - the whizzy new computerised 4-wheel system is apparently extremely sensitive, and he prefers using the older generation of light beams. He said that the new technology is so sensitive that even the vibration through the ramp from the car's engine running can affect the readout. Also he's nowhere to hide as the system has a display in the waiting area, and you're given a printout of the result - which displays the angles to the nearest minute of arc.

As someone who's having to adapt to new technology at work too I can sympathise!

Cheers

Jack
Sometimes new technology is way too sensitive for older things, not just cars. I've often thought of designing and building my own vacuum guage but most of the sensors are so sensitive they'd show every little fluctuation of the engine, especially on a digital display. I have found a solution though and it's using a modern MAP sensor coupled to an analogue meter, just finding the time (and enthusiasm!) to actually build it now! I already have another one that uses one of the cars own sensors with an LED bargraph display built that ~10 years ago but haven't fitted it yet! That's more because i don't have anywhere to put it than anything else though!

There's a lot to be said for using analogue measuring kit on an analogue adjustment (such as steering) and digital kit on a digital adjustment.
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Old Jun 26th, 2021, 18:02   #14
capt jack
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And a final twist in the tail. After the tracing was re-done I didn't really get to use the car much above 50mph for a week or so. Then I had to make a quick motorway trip, and noticed that whilst the car behaved perfectly up to around 60mph, above that, and on a straight motorway, it had a tendency to pull very slightly to the left.

So I very carefully measured the tread depth on the two front tyres. The brand new on on the NSF was at 8mm, whereas the OSF was at between 5 and 6mm.

Thinking about a couple of posts in this thread I thought I'd try swapping the top front wheels around. And sure enough, there is a noticeable difference.

So it's a 16" wheel with 205/55 tyres. 16" is 406.4mm, 55% of 205mm is 112.75, times 2, means that the new tyre is a total of 631.9mm diameter. The other slightly worn tyre is 3mm worn, so 6mm smaller in diameter, making it 625.9.

That means the circumference of the new tyre is 1985.2mm, the circumference of the part worn tyre will be 1966.3mm. So for each revolution of the new tyre, the old one has to rotate 18.9mm further, so therefore it must either rotate a little faster, or if both wheels rotate at the same speed, the slightly worn tyre will cover less ground. Either way, the directional stability of the car is going to be affected.

I can only think that at lower speeds this difference isn't really noticeable, but at higher speeds it will make a noticeable difference. Add in a road camber, and the difference is magnified again.

When you think about it, if you have a 4wd car the importance of matching the wear is emphasised because over time mis-matched tyre tread depths, and hence diameters can damage the differential.

On that basis, for a RWD car, if you need to replace only one tyre, it'd be better to make sure that the two rears are matched in type and tread depth, whereas on a FWD drive car you'd be well advised to keep the fronts matched.

After all that Maths my brain is hurting, and to be fair, in a 25-yr-old car that is not really driven a sustained high speed for much it's all a bit theoretical.

Nevertheless, it's food for thought!

Jack
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Old Jun 26th, 2021, 18:58   #15
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Interesting reading gents, once again Laird Scooby gives his excellent analysis of the problem.
My usual remedy (but not advised) is to put a string around all 4 wheels at centre axle height and shim out the front rims where the string passes through to create an all square set up then clamp the steering wheel and adjust the TRd's as required.

I keep meaning to buy one of those drive on adjuster pads that indicates the toe discrepency but never got round to it...........
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Old Jun 26th, 2021, 19:35   #16
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Interesting reading gents, once again Laird Scooby gives his excellent analysis of the problem.
My usual remedy (but not advised) is to put a string around all 4 wheels at centre axle height and shim out the front rims where the string passes through to create an all square set up then clamp the steering wheel and adjust the TRd's as required.

I keep meaning to buy one of those drive on adjuster pads that indicates the toe discrepency but never got round to it...........
You'd be better off buying a Ttrackace Andy. Bit dearer than the Gunsons Trackrite but much more accurate.

http://www.trackace.co.uk/

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231601872125

The ebay link goes to one that includes the blow-moulded case - well worth having IMHO as it not only provides storage but protection while stored.

Reminds me, i must exhume mine and check/adjust the Volvo and also the Rover, if i can.
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Old Jun 27th, 2021, 09:29   #17
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You'd be better off buying a Ttrackace Andy. Bit dearer than the Gunsons Trackrite but much more accurate.

http://www.trackace.co.uk/

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231601872125

The ebay link goes to one that includes the blow-moulded case - well worth having IMHO as it not only provides storage but protection while stored.

Reminds me, i must exhume mine and check/adjust the Volvo and also the Rover, if i can.
Hey Dave,
much obliged, that's a simple piece of kit and well worth a shelf in the workshop.

I'll keep some Lager tokens spare in the wallet and buy one soon.
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Old Jun 27th, 2021, 10:33   #18
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Hey Dave,
much obliged, that's a simple piece of kit and well worth a shelf in the workshop.

I'll keep some Lager tokens spare in the wallet and buy one soon.
I was thinking the exact same thing Andy!
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Old Jun 27th, 2021, 11:39   #19
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Cant trust anyone these days and very few know how to use these fangled tracking systems. if you visit all the garages offering a free tracking check you will always get differing figures. The likes of formula one etc are cowboys who need to stick to just oil changes.

As elsewhere the tyres need changing in pairs and ideally same brand. I see you got yours sorted now as a botched tracking issue. But worn suspension/steering/some brands of tyres etc can all influence driving on slightly warped roads.

Dont be afraid to sue these cowboys in small claims court too if it results in damage to tyres etc
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