Seriously?

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Othen

I'd been keeping an eye on the reddy/brown RR Shadow auction (but having already decided it would not be practical for me to buy it at the moment). It has just ended and didn't attract any bids at the starting price of £6,000. One is forced to conclude that the market has spoken and the RR is worth rather less than 6 grand.

EBay next?

Alan

As a part of my ongoing research into late historic registered RR I'd been watching this auction:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/355570932005

... so: it is a 1981 motorcar with 109,000 miles, the seller says it comes with a bit of service history, but it looks like it has been resting under the apple tree in the garden since 2015 (the steering and brake issues recorded at that year's MoT would probably have cost more to fix than it was worth then). Since is has turned 40 and no longer needs a MoT test or any tax. The seller says it was running and riding, and it looks quite nice in the photos.

Now, this motor car just sold for £4,100: the market has spoken and that is probably the going price for a non-collectors 40ish year old RR. That seems like nowhere near enough for a motorcar like that, but supply and demand dictate the value, and that is what it is.

In no way would it be worth restoring a motor car like this, that might cost £30,000 and afterwards it would be worth £12,000 - if one wanted a good example it would be much better to buy one that someone had already spent good money on. It might be huge fun to own for a few years, keep on the road in a minimal sort of way, enjoy driving it to the curry house on a Wednesday evening and then out for a cuppa at a nice café on Sunday mornings. If something major failed be prepared to sell it on to be parted out (and so not wasted) - probably for about 4 grand.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

As a part of my ongoing research into late historic registered RR I'd been watching this auction:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/355570932005

... so: it is a 1981 motorcar with 109,000 miles, the seller says it comes with a bit of service history, but it looks like it has been resting under the apple tree in the garden since 2015 (the steering and brake issues recorded at that year's MoT would probably have cost more to fix than it was worth then). Since is has turned 40 and no longer needs a MoT test or any tax. The seller says it was running and riding, and it looks quite nice in the photos.

Now, this motor car just sold for £4,100: the market has spoken and that is probably the going price for a non-collectors 40ish year old RR. That seems like nowhere near enough for a motorcar like that, but supply and demand dictate the value, and that is what it is.

In no way would it be worth restoring a motor car like this, that might cost £30,000 and afterwards it would be worth £12,000 - if one wanted a good example it would be much better to buy one that someone had already spent good money on. It might be huge fun to own for a few years, keep on the road in a minimal sort of way, enjoy driving it to the curry house on a Wednesday evening and then out for a cuppa at a nice café on Sunday mornings. If something major failed be prepared to sell it on to be parted out (and so not wasted) - probably for about 4 grand.

You dodged a bullet there Alan! If memory serves, these use the same steering, brakes and suspension as used on the Citroen DS/CX (maybe "boeufed" up to cope with the extra weight of the RR) and you know what those are like if the steering and brakes have a problem! Take your wallet, aim it at the nearest black hole and wave a tearful goodbye to the contents of your bank accounts!

A slightly later one would be a much better bet for a number of reasons, one RR dumped the Citroen Liquide Hydraulique Minerale systems in favour of "dry" systems and normal PAS and servo assistance, two they upgraded/updated the box to a 4-speed vastly improving economy (i've heard of jumps from single digits to ~20mpg) and third (not last, i just can't think of more at the moment!) it's likely that the car won't yet be eligible for tax/MoT exemption and we all know what that does to the selling price!

Buy a later one with the 4-speed auto, none of that foreign muck contaminating the steering, suspension and brakes and a lower price tag until you've owned it past its 40th birthday. Something in the back of my mind says later cars had Boge Nivomats instead of the Citroen system, again be careful if so as they are £OUCH if you can even get them.

I'm sure our resident RR expert can confirm/adjust any info i'm a bit adrift on but i think i'm fairly close on it.

[ITSv40]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

You dodged a bullet there Alan! If memory serves, these use the same steering, brakes and suspension as used on the Citroen DS/CX (maybe "boeufed" up to cope with the extra weight of the RR) and you know what those are like if the steering and brakes have a problem! Take your wallet, aim it at the nearest black hole and wave a tearful goodbye to the contents of your bank accounts!

Yes, all Shadow and the derivatives used a Citroen suspension under licence. Spirits and the Bentley equivalent also used the Citroen suspension - not sure when it was abandoned for a more conventional system as my passion for R-R models ended in 1965 when the monocoque Shadow was introduced - although a nice Corniche Drophead would be nice parked on the gravel drive.

There is a reason they are worth pennies and one reason alone - they cost unlimited funds to keep on the road - not restored, but roadworthy.

The example in the ebay ad shows a Caribbean Blue car in the photo, yet the description states black. Also Irish plates devalues and makes folks question 'what the hell they are bidding on'.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

You dodged a bullet there Alan! If memory serves, these use the same steering, brakes and suspension as used on the Citroen DS/CX (maybe "boeufed" up to cope with the extra weight of the RR) and you know what those are like if the steering and brakes have a problem! Take your wallet, aim it at the nearest black hole and wave a tearful goodbye to the contents of your bank accounts!

A slightly later one would be a much better bet for a number of reasons, one RR dumped the Citroen Liquide Hydraulique Minerale systems in favour of "dry" systems and normal PAS and servo assistance, two they upgraded/updated the box to a 4-speed vastly improving economy (i've heard of jumps from single digits to ~20mpg) and third (not last, i just can't think of more at the moment!) it's likely that the car won't yet be eligible for tax/MoT exemption and we all know what that does to the selling price!

Buy a later one with the 4-speed auto, none of that foreign muck contaminating the steering, suspension and brakes and a lower price tag until you've owned it past its 40th birthday. Something in the back of my mind says later cars had Boge Nivomats instead of the Citroen system, again be careful if so as they are £OUCH if you can even get them.

I'm sure our resident RR expert can confirm/adjust any info i'm a bit adrift on but i think i'm fairly close on it.

Originally Posted by ITSv40

Yes, all Shadow and the derivatives used a Citroen suspension under licence. Spirits and the Bentley equivalent also used the Citroen suspension - not sure when it was abandoned for a more conventional system as my passion for R-R models ended in 1965 when the monocoque Shadow was introduced - although a nice Corniche Drophead would be nice parked on the gravel drive.

There is a reason they are worth pennies and one reason alone - they cost unlimited funds to keep on the road - not restored, but roadworthy.

The example in the ebay ad shows a Caribbean Blue car in the photo, yet the description states black. Also Irish plates devalues and makes folks question 'what the hell they are bidding on'.

Thank you chaps, those were some excellent points.

One must consider my context in being curious about owning a RR/Bentley once in my lifetime. As we discussed somewhere above, I have fond childhood memories of my uncle Eric's 1970's RR (the one Gary still owns) - that is about my only link, but I can't help thinking it might be a nice experience to run a motor car like that for a while before it (rightly) retires to a specialist breaker to support a generation of collector's cars through vital organ donations.

I'm attracted by the very low prices. I can see that nice examples can be had for £25,000, but there is no guarantee one of those won't also cost 'unlimited funds to keep on the road'. Although I could afford it, I'm not sure I'd want to have £25,000 tied up in a curiosity I might use once or twice per week and do 1,000 miles/year. On the other hand having £5,000 committed to one closer to the bottom of the pile but qualified as an historic vehicle would be almost no risk - knowing it would always be worth most of that sum with a specialist breaker.

So, that is my line of thought: I'm tempted to dip my toe in to the RR/Bentley market for an interesting experience, that is all.

I knew the bit about Citroen suspension components - but there is an inevitability about a niche market manufacturer without a range of mainstream cars to call upon having to outsource the design and supply of many parts. That is something one would have to accept with any small, niche manufacturer (Lotus, Morgan and Reliant all come to mind in this context - and are all worthy and interesting).

The point about the NI registration plate is an interesting one. In the older (but not pre-suffix) market many folk would see investing a few hundred pounds in a slightly unusual number plate as being an advantage. It is interesting that the RR scene might prefer to see an original 1970s/1980s suffix plate instead. I'm not sure I'd be fussed either way: I certainly wouldn't buy a NI plate for a motorcar, but then I don't think I'd ever bother to have DVLA swap back to the original either. I rather suspect someone put the NI plate on to make the RR look younger some years ago, but now it is qualified as an historic vehicle that seems irrelevant.

Just the ramblings of a chap with a beard before Bobwalkin time on Easter Sunday.



Addendum: This one is interesting: the seller admits it needs a bout a grand's worth of spares to finish:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395295061....c101465.m3507

... maybe it actually needs much more? I suppose this is where 'they cost unlimited funds to keep on the road - not restored, but roadworthy' has kicked in.

[ITSv40]

Alan, no one is knocking your desire to enter the realms of R-R/Bentley ownership. Reading your post above, you do seem to be approaching it with the right frame of mind. It is a little like having a flutter on the horses, only invest money you can afford to lose and win or lose, you have had some fun in the process.

The Bentley 8 is a perfect example of a cheap car that will need much more expenditure. There is a thousand pounds worth of parts to repair for the mot, but, and this is the big but, brake and suspension repairs needs specialist input, it is not work to be carried out on a drive way when the sun is shining. Factor in recovery with a trailer, professional repair costs and parts and you have quite easily spent five grand + on getting an mot ticket. Then there will be the myriad of other things that need doing - apart from the mot items - which will be expensive to resolve.

Shadow's and later cars are definitely not DIY cars and maintenance costs will be horrific as the Bentley 8 owner has found out.

At the very bottom end of the market, originality doesn't matter, but once you move up to the market similar to your cousin's car then originality is all important. The R-R/Bentley scene is very much driven by originality, originality, originality.

I do sincerely hope you find a nice example and can enjoy some fun with it - like the Harrods slogan, 'it is a different world'.

[ITSv40]

All this R-R/Bentley discussion reminds me of an incident 20 years ago.

We had organised a private visit to a stately home in the next village to us and in order to minimise disruption to our hosts agreed to all arrive at the same time. In order to facilitate this everyone arrived at our's for coffee and then drove the short distance in convoy. Parking for 15 cars on our drive was a bit tight, but we managed it . Now I had just finished block paving the courtyard in front of the garages and used that to park several cars - new paving, Rolls-Royce cars, what could possibly go wrong!

The event was the first for a new member who had recently joined the club. He arrived in the scruffiest white Shadow 1. Recently poorly resprayed with filler very visible along the skirts. He was like a pup with two tails regarding his purchase, 'It's a Roller, mate and only cost me thruppence ha'penny'. Needless to say that was one of the cars parked on the pristine block paving. Coffee was served and we all went off to the stately home. White scruffy car drives off and leaves an oil slick on the paving of six inches in diameter. A quick scrub with degreaser didn't remove the stain and I subsequently had to lift the affected blocks and replace. The car hadn't stood there for more than 45 mins.

The owner came to several club events and turned out a thoroughly decent chap, but his ownership didn't last long, he soon got very disillusioned with his purchase and sold it on. Over the years I have seen so many disillusioned owners who didn't experience the ownership enjoyment they were expecting.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by ITSv40

Alan, no one is knocking your desire to enter the realms of R-R/Bentley ownership. Reading your post above, you do seem to be approaching it with the right frame of mind. It is a little like having a flutter on the horses, only invest money you can afford to lose and win or lose, you have had some fun in the process.

The Bentley 8 is a perfect example of a cheap car that will need much more expenditure. There is a thousand pounds worth of parts to repair for the mot, but, and this is the big but, brake and suspension repairs needs specialist input, it is not work to be carried out on a drive way when the sun is shining. Factor in recovery with a trailer, professional repair costs and parts and you have quite easily spent five grand + on getting an mot ticket. Then there will be the myriad of other things that need doing - apart from the mot items - which will be expensive to resolve.

Shadow's and later cars are definitely not DIY cars and maintenance costs will be horrific as the Bentley 8 owner has found out.

At the very bottom end of the market, originality doesn't matter, but once you move up to the market similar to your cousin's car then originality is all important. The R-R/Bentley scene is very much driven by originality, originality, originality.

I do sincerely hope you find a nice example and can enjoy some fun with it - like the Harrods slogan, 'it is a different world'.

What excellent advice - it is heartening to have some guidance on a subject about which I know little - but fancy a ‘flutter on the horses’.

I’m still very much in the thinking about it stage of this venture, working out a sensible course of action. I agree entirely about the Bentley 8, the seller has discovered (a little too late) that recommissioning and maintenance costs can be horrific, and has given up. That is a pity because he seems to be close to the end, but I think trying to pick up the threads of a project like that would be folly.

As part of my research I’ve taken a look slightly further up the market to see what might be available. At the £12,000 point there is this 1975 Shadow I - similar to my uncle’s car I think:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/276401834...mis&media=COPY

… being sold by a specialist on behalf of a customer. It seems to have quite good provenance, but no MoT history after it qualified as an historic vehicle, and also a significant rust problem in its more distant MoT history that would need some investigation:

Test Date 29 Sep 2014
Mileage 98403 miles
Result Failed
Failed on 6 items:
Body or chassis has excessive corrosion, seriously affecting its strength within 30cm of the body mountings (6.1.b.2)
Nearside body or chassis has excessive corrosion, seriously affecting its strength within 30cm of the body mountings (6.1.b.2)
Offside body or chassis has excessive corrosion, seriously affecting its strength within 30cm of the body mountings (6.1.b.2)
Offside front seat belt retracting mechanism defective (5.2.5b)
Steering column flexible coupling fractured and unserviceable(2.2.c.1d)
Windscreen washer provides insufficient washer liquid (8.2.3)

… going another step up the RR ladder does seem to buy a much nicer motor car (I suppose that would be true of for all makes).

Many thanks for the comments, they are really helpful.

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by ITSv40

All this R-R/Bentley discussion reminds me of an incident 20 years ago.

We had organised a private visit to a stately home in the next village to us and in order to minimise disruption to our hosts agreed to all arrive at the same time. In order to facilitate this everyone arrived at our's for coffee and then drove the short distance in convoy. Parking for 15 cars on our drive was a bit tight, but we managed it . Now I had just finished block paving the courtyard in front of the garages and used that to park several cars - new paving, Rolls-Royce cars, what could possibly go wrong!

The event was the first for a new member who had recently joined the club. He arrived in the scruffiest white Shadow 1. Recently poorly resprayed with filler very visible along the skirts. He was like a pup with two tails regarding his purchase, 'It's a Roller, mate and only cost me thruppence ha'penny'. Needless to say that was one of the cars parked on the pristine block paving. Coffee was served and we all went off to the stately home. White scruffy car drives off and leaves an oil slick on the paving of six inches in diameter. A quick scrub with degreaser didn't remove the stain and I subsequently had to lift the affected blocks and replace. The car hadn't stood there for more than 45 mins.

The owner came to several club events and turned out a thoroughly decent chap, but his ownership didn't last long, he soon got very disillusioned with his purchase and sold it on. Over the years I have seen so many disillusioned owners who didn't experience the ownership enjoyment they were expecting.

An excellent (and sobering) anecdote - thank you.

I’m in no rush whatsoever (and am in no position to embark on a RR/Bentley adventure until I’ve provided myself with at least one more garage), but I’m gradually convincing myself that my ‘flutter on the horses’ should be aimed slightly higher than the £4,000 end of the market .

[Laird Scooby]

I'm with ITsV40 on this one as well Alan, you'd be on a "Highway to Hell" (see what i did there? ) with the one you've found needing steering repairs and brake repairs according to the listing (but otherwise unmentioned) and having checked some info on Wikipedia on the Bentley 8 and it's successor, the Brooklands, i've found one that i think would be a better bet. Granted the screen price is higher but factoring the steering and brake work in, it's probably cheaper!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126401626113

It also has a current MoT so ideal for popping down the Taj Mahal for your chicken tikka massala and plenty of room to put your clubs in the boot for your long drive to the local golf course. Oh yeah, it's in Farnham too so you could drive past your old school when you collect it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley_Brooklands

Wiki link there so you can have a look and see why i think this era of models would be a better choice - the 4-speed auto came a decade later than i first thought, maybe i was thinking of Jaguar for the 4-speed box (i think the XJ-S gained a 4-speed when it morphed into the XJS HE circa 1983) but there are other improvements for the Brooklands over the 8 so worth thinking about. Maybe our RR font of knowledge can cast his eye over the listing to see if there are any pitfalls?

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I'm with ITsV40 on this one as well Alan, you'd be on a "Highway to Hell" (see what i did there? ) with the one you've found needing steering repairs and brake repairs according to the listing (but otherwise unmentioned) and having checked some info on Wikipedia on the Bentley 8 and it's successor, the Brooklands, i've found one that i think would be a better bet. Granted the screen price is higher but factoring the steering and brake work in, it's probably cheaper!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126401626113

It also has a current MoT so ideal for popping down the Taj Mahal for your chicken tikka massala and plenty of room to put your clubs in the boot for your long drive to the local golf course. Oh yeah, it's in Farnham too so you could drive past your old school when you collect it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley_Brooklands

Wiki link there so you can have a look and see why i think this era of models would be a better choice - the 4-speed auto came a decade later than i first thought, maybe i was thinking of Jaguar for the 4-speed box (i think the XJ-S gained a 4-speed when it morphed into the XJS HE circa 1983) but there are other improvements for the Brooklands over the 8 so worth thinking about. Maybe our RR font of knowledge can cast his eye over the listing to see if there are any pitfalls?

That does indeed look like a nice motor car Dave. It looks like it failed to sell at a previous auction offering in Aug 21, but in the video from that attempt it looks nice:

https://youtu.be/Q0YSc7rzR_E?si=Vs1dgSM9O5E7sH6d

... it is a 1996 motor car though Dave, and so at least a decade younger than I'm looking for. A 1970s or early 80s like my uncle Eric's RR is what I'd like.

Alan