Diesel particulate filter and rising oil levels discussion

[S60D5-185]

Mine is a 185 6 speed manual. Around the doors i get 42 mpg and on a long run a very easy 50+ and that is measured properly by brimming the tank rather than relying on the computer.

Darryl

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by S60D5-185

Totally agree.

Since getting my 2006 S60 D5 185 , 3 years ago i have exclusively used Mobil 1 5w-30 ESP Formula ( Low Ash ). I change this oil + filter every 10k

Many on here criticised this choice of oil and warned of horrendous consequences by not sticking to a 0w-30.

Well to my mind , given the potential problems with the DPF , the low ash aspect of Mobil1 ESP outweighed the non conforming to specified viscocity.

35k on i have had no problems whatsover with the DPF, rising oil levels or indeed mechanical disaster and the fuel economy has been nothing short of superb throughout.

Darryl

I agree with you, as M1 ESP 5/30 has a viscosity of 12.1 at 100c and Castrol Edge 0/30 (C2/C3) has a viscosity of 12.2, so the difference is minimal.
The pour point of M1 ESP 5/30 is minus 45c and you won't get a significant increase in cold start wear until the temp is within about 10c of the pour point, so the M1 oil is good down to minus 35c.
There is in reality almost no difference in cold start wear factors between a 10/30 and a 0/30 unless you get temps below about minus 25c, BUT the engine will start more easily with the 0W oil.
Castrol, Mobil, Shell, Liqui Moly and Valvoline all make excellent top quality full synthetics and if you select the correct viscosity and Acea cat oil, it will make no difference to the engine which company you choose.

The important thing is to get the oil change interval correct and if you suspect your oil is suffering from fuel contamination, I would send off a sample to a cheap oil lab like Blackstone (25 usd plus postage) and find out what condition it is in at the end of 10K miles. If it's too thin (Below the 30 grade range) then you can either reduce the oil change interval or move up a grade to Castrol Turbo Diesel 5/40 or similar.
If I had fuel contamination, I would just change the oil only every 5K miles and then do a full service every 10K miles. Dirty oil filters are more efficient than clean ones, so changing the oil filter too often is bad news. I never, ever use a non OEM oil filter.

Which viscosity of oil selected should relate to the average air temperature and the nature of the load on the engine (Racing and heavy towing put more load on the bearings), so if I was in a hot country and pushing the engine hard, then I would not use an X/30, but move up a grade to an X/40. Volvo do list a 15/40 full synthetic as the best oil for serious desert operations for many of the diesels.

[skyship007]

I should have listed the viscosity of Castrol Edge SLX Pro 5/30, which is 11.8 cSt at 100c, so the Mobil EP 5/30 is in fact thicker, which is good in my opinion.
In general terms if you check the oil finder page of a major engine oil company web site (I only regard Castrol, Mobil, Shell and Liqui Moly as major brands in the EU) for an engine specific recommended oil, it will be just as good as the Volvo dealers Castrol oil. I would not make the same statement about oil or fuel filters and think that using a real Volvo one is the best idea. The can might be similar to a German Mann oil filter, but the contents might not be.

I've looked at a lot of oil analysis results from various oil companies and the only general comment I would make is that Castrol do seem to make the best oils in terms of minimum wear rates, BUT Mobil and Shell both seem to make oils that clean better (More detergents and dispersant additives), which can be very important for older engines or long oil change intervals. Liqui Moly are half way between the two in additive terms.
Valvoline seem to make the best normal grade high mileage oil if you have a high oil consumption or leaks, as Maxlife 10/40 is one of the best HM oils around.

If you are desperate enough due to a terminal phase problem (Minor sludge, serious unrepairable oil leaks, gummed injectors or even Carbon deposits in the cylinders) to be in need of an oil or fuel additive, Liqui Moly are the best company in the snake oil game.

No oil company is making a special oil that will deal with the effects of diesel contamination. Valvoline do include some extra additives to deal with high Sulpur content petrol use, but nothing for diesel contamination. It seems to be just a case of moving up a grade or changing the oil more often. If anyone decides to try using Ceretec, it would be good if they would do a before and after used oil analysis and publish it here.

[volvorocks]

Originally Posted by AlunH

I am at a loss as to what action to take now. We (STUPIDLY) didn't take the car back to the garage and demand a full repair or a refund if not rapaired within a fixed time frame. We trusted Volvo and were let down. They said they had fixed the problem when all they have done is cover it up. They even made us pay for clean oil to be added during the testing phase because I didn't weant the car to run with insufficiently thick lubricant.

Is there anyone with legal training who could advise us what to do now?

rgds,
Alun

Thank you for your post (quoted shortened).What you write is indeed correct,unfortunately.

I have been informed that 'the oil is of a quality and standard that allows dilution with diesel so as not to affect its ability to protect the engine'.

Now make of that what you will, but in my book its nonsense. Oil should not be diluted with diesel,and for oil to be diluted with diesel in the manner it is being, indicates a design fault.It is however mere opinion and I am not a qualified tech so my thoughts count for nothing without being able to substantiate them with proof.

For any action to have a chance of being successful you would have to provide proof. To do so would be expensive,not to mention time consuming and stressful.For any action to be successful you must have suffered a loss? - have you?

And therein lies the problem - by the time engines may have worn (even prematurely - say they expire at 80k when without the poor oil lubrication issue they would have lasted say 150k) it may be suggested by Volvo that it is not due to this rising oil issue, but something else - and how does one dispute that or argue the contrary?

Now don't get me wrong, I am hugely in favour of the 'small man' taking on the might of a large corporation despite the odds being stacked against them, and seeing a 'large corprate grin' turn into an even 'larger corporate grimace' although one has to be sensible and consider chances of success in relation to time expended along with attendant cost and stress!

It really is a difficult position in which to be, and manufacturers know that.Awareness may be an option with which to fight back.

The above is just my opinion and others may disagree.

Regards

[Jetmech]

When we bought our Volvo 2 years ago I took the decision, based on the various dpf regeneration threads, to use 0W-40 oil and this year I have also started using the new low ash version of this oil.
I have not had the software update done but don't completely fill the sump, I top up with 6L at the oil change. So far the oil level has changed very little if at all over the last 3 10,000 mile oil changes. Of course it may be topping up with diesel as fast as it is burning it! This year I have decided to extend the oil change interval to annually for economic reasons, that should equate to about 15,000 miles.

[Jay]

Rising oil level V70 D5 205 year 2010

From factory to 18,000 miles – oil at the max level (4 bars on the electronic gauge), no top up required (Factory Castrol oil)

After 1st service 18,000 to 36,000 miles – oil at max level no top up required (Castrol oil)

After 2nd service From 36,000 miles – the oil level seems to hover from 3 bars to 4 bars (max level). The garage advised me that the recent software update has reduced the oil amount to account for rising oil level (Mobil 0w/30 oil)

Should I be worried about any damage this may have caused to the engine since new and consider a replacement car.

Thanks

[Ninja59]

no it sounds fine the problems are if it goes over max...

[richardbowen]

This post is quite helpful.

[Nickthecook]

I've owned a Euro4 V70 D5 for nearly 4 years and have spent a lot of time investigating the DPF Problems. Primarily, the issue lays with an EGR design problem. Volvo's information regarding this system, is some what ambiguous. The system should have a 2nd MAP Sensor after the Throttle Module, as can be seen on the Euro5 D5. Without this, the ECM can only 'Guess' what's going on based on information taken from other sensors.

The system is based on Ford2003. A High Pressure Loop EGR, that creates a pressure drop on the intake side, by using the throttle plate to restrict boost pressure and adjusting the VGT Vanes to increase exhaust pressure. However, what happens if your EGR is blocked? Or there's a fault with one of the sensors used to calculate this pressure drop? It is possible for a vacuum to be created between the throttle and the cylinders without the ECM having any indication. It might take a 'Perfect Storm' for this to happen, but due to another problem I've identified, the first time the owner has any idea there's a problem, will be the dreaded 'Soot Filter Full'Message. But that's not all, this problem will also prevent a proper regeneration from taking place, here's why.

All of these sensors and modules rely on electrical power and although your voltage readings may be fine, low amperage output from the alternator will struggle to push that voltage past any resistance. The early Euro4's alternator, is controlled by the ECM via the LIN Network. There is a very simple way to tell if there's a problem, but for whatever reason Volvo left it out of the owners handbook. If, when the key is turned to ignition pos2 the 'Check Engine' symbol fails to illuminate, it indicates an ECM Power supply problem (Source VIDA.) With the power steering pump situated directly above the alternator, a few drips of hydraulic fluid onto the carbon brushes is all it takes to significantly reduce output. Early Euro4's were also fitted with a specific type of alternator called an 'Overrunning Alternator Decoupler,' or A.O.D. for short. At the time of production, the pulleys were only available from one firm worldwide, based in North America. They gave the pulleys a surprisingly short life span under optimal conditions, of only 50k miles. My D5 has always been lumpy at idle, something I've always assumed was due to worn engine pads, but I was wrong. The vibration at idle was infact caused by the Alternator pulley.

So far we have the problematic HPL EGR and an alternator that despite charging the battery, is failing in all other areas, now comes the kicker.

The DPF Pressure Sensor is connected to a 5v Reference Circuit (Circuit 2,) as are many other sensors, including the DPF Temp sensor, MAF Temperature Sensor, MAP Sensor and quite a few others. It takes only one of these to develop a fault and it will effect the rest of the sensors on the circuit. However, the alternators drop in output coupled to a 5v ref fault, does seem to over sensitize the DPF Pressure Sensor. With my vehicle, it was the changes made by the HPL EGR on a gear change that caused the 'Soot Filter Full' Messages warning.

Bringing it all together, the setting the ECM puts the car into for regeneration be it with or without the presence of the 'Soot Filter Full,' and reduced power (BTW, 'Limp Mode,' doesn't knock out the Turbo, it reduces fuel flow.) does nothing to improve matters, infact it makes them worse. The DPF Temp Sensor reading will be overstated due to the 5v ref fault and a host of other data required for successful regeneration, will also be skewed for the same reason. Therefore the ECM may think it's reached that critical 600°C, when infact it's under 300°C. Only at that ideal 2,200rpm, will the throttle open enough to prevent the vacuum I mentioned earlier, from sucking oil past the rings, further restricting the DPF (in regen the EGR is fixed at 95% closed.) You may find you get a 'Soot Filter Full,' mesaage, that goes when the engine has been off for 5 minutes or more. This means it is a 'Spike' in pressure, not calculated soot loading, that has caused the message. Spikes are mostly caused by an electrical problem elsewhere. The majority of the data required for the DPF System to function properly, is gathered from sensors on that 5v ref. The same goes for the EGR, which WILL cause genuine DPF Problems.

My 5v ref system was playing up due to a faulty A/C pressure sensor, however it wasn't until I fitted a remanufactured alternator that the ECM finally picked it up. I had MAF Temperatures of -40°C, 7psi boost at idle, 400hpa DPF Pressure at idle and DPF Temperatures of pushing 1,000°c, yet the only fault the ECM could identify.....you got it, the DPF Pressure.

Remanufactured alternator was £140 (less £30 if you return your old one.) P.s. if you need to replace the DPF Pressure Sensor, it has to be a genuine Volvo one (ok, so it's actually a Ford part.) Aftermarket pressure sensors will NOT adapt in range.

BTW, before carrying out the work, I honestly thought the engine was old and ready for scrap at 238,000 miles. It is now quieter and smoother than at any point whilst I've owned it.

Sadly, Volvo only do as VIDA says The first thing they do is read the codes, which in this case is of no use. Yes, replacing the DPF will provide a temporary fix as the flow is so good the faults won't push it into the danger zone......YET.

I can't say this will be the same for all Euro4's. Later models have their alternators connected to the CEM, rather than ECM. But I'd it's using silly amounts of oil, it's down to the Throttle plate causing a vacuum, and that can be happen for other reasons also.

[Bigfoot13]

Today, I have taken in my V90 as the oil level notification message came up. This is the second time- first time was approximately a year ago, if I remember correctly. I have had the car for 18 months and it was serviced in April.

It seems that the problem has not been sorted out at all. Volvo are doing an oil change under warranty at present but I will be interested to see if they try to get me to pay once out of warranty. They have been very helpful- neither time have I called prior to arriving at the garage and both times they have fitted me in immediately.