Local councils may limit car ownership to one car per bed ro

[Dyna]

Yes you read it correctly. To make a long story short, I assume most of you on this site are classic car enthusiasts just like me. The Planning Authority (PA) has now granted the Local Planning Authority (LPA) the right of limiting total number of vehicles on the property I live at to six.

I currently live in a two story house with four bedrooms and a self contained annex consisting of a one bedroom flat for relatives. The plot that the house is standing on is 9600 sqft (60x160) and the house it self has an approximate footprint of 1600 sqft (including patios etc). You can easily (1*) park six very large cars in the driveway, two very large cars in the car port and one medium car in the garage. The house is located in the very south of outer London (Sutton Council).

The collection is currently bigger than that since I have a temporary garage in the backyard where I currently restomoding a 1958 Chevy Suburban and restoring a Mini Clubman estate. When the summer comes they will replace one of the daily drivers, a modern Volvo estate. (The Volvo aspect is that we also have a very nice P1800ES and a project P1800E).

I’m writing since this case might become case “law” for the whole of UK and thereby limiting economical car ownership severely if you have neighbours or councils hostile to classic cars or cars in general.

I’m currently at the last stage and hope of overturning this. The PA has found that the LPA is right when they concluded that we breached planning law by having more than six cars. We now need to take this to the high court. If I should have any success of turning the decision around and get a second review by the PA.

If you are a lawyer or know one, that can help in planning law or high court procedures please do not hesitate to contact me. If I need to pay full lawyer fees driving this case forward it will cost me a fortune something I can’t really afford. If you think you can help in any other way please do not hesitate but contact me, I definitely need all the help I can get.

In order to prepare for the worst I for sure need any help I can get storing a few of my cars. Any out door storage on gravel or dry ground anywhere south of London for at least a few months would definitely help me a lot. I don’t want be in the position being forced to do a fire sale of my cars at great economical loss.

There is hope, since one issue might invalidate all of this totally. The local planning authority never served the owner (I only rent) of the house with the enforcement notice. They are legally bound to server all interested parties with an enforcement notice otherwise the enforcement notice isn’t valid. At my appeal to the PA I gave this as one of the reasons for the appeal. This reason was rejected by the PA since I the appellant had failed to provide sufficient proof that the owner wasn’t served. The reason was also rejected by the PA since the owner isn’t a major interested party. The failure to server might be the very ticket out of this but we will still need help with this in a high court. (2*)

No matter what we will try every angle possible to take this to the high court and have it overturned. At the moment we don’t know how and time will shortly run out so if you can help please as said before don’t hesitate to contact us.

There are also two questions in regards to the interpretation of the decision by the Planning Authority.

1: The LPA stated that the breach was in relation to “vehicle storage” in the enforcement notice now upheld by the PA. This makes you ask is the six car allowed counted as you are allowed to store six cars, and say park two more (your daily drivers)? Or is it six cars in total.

2: Is there any difference if they cars are garaged or not? What right has the LPA/PA to inspect your property (especially indoors) to make sure you don’t “store” more cars than allowed? Is the six cars limit, limiting the storage outside or the over all total number.

The legal question to how the law should be interpreted in regards to that there should be no “material change to the usage of any building or land within the cartilage of the dwellinghouse for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse” (3*) What is setting the limit to six cars, or X number of cars, or for that matter X number of garden gnomes, or X number of dogs or what every your into? The whole issue is so arbitrary that there must be some form of rectification done, otherwise every resident of this country is at risk being forcefully separated from his or her property depending on the attitude of the PA inspector towards his or her hobby.

Sincerely Dyna

1*If you squeeze you can have ten or so especially if they are smaller such as a Jaguar XJC.

2* The reason is that owner is a major interested party since the owner is responsible for any fines if there is a breach of planning permission, It’s also the responsibility of the LPA to proof they severed all interested parties, it’s not the appellants responsibility to proof it from what I can understand.


3* Personally I’m pretty outraged to how fluffy a law can be written. It basically gives a carte blanche to any LPA/PA to find you in breach of the planning act no matter what you are doing on the property. Say that you for example live in a semidetached house of half the size of the property we live on. You make a two car garage in back yard which is accessible by a small drive way on the side of the building. You ae well with in planning authorities limit size wise for how big your garage can be with out needing permission, but you will now be 100% in breach of planning law since you have made “material change <snip> enjoyment of the dwellinghouse”

[Laney760]

I don't know if this is legally correct or not but I have read that if you have been doing this for ten years without planning permission and have not been challenged that you would now no longer legally need their permission and they can do nothing

What happened to 'An Englishman's home is his castle'?

[222s]

I'm no expert on this, but in the past, when I've read on forums about people having hassle from the council over the number of vehicles, it's usually since the planning dept. bunnies don't classify a driveway as vehicle storage, just temporary parking. One way around this that was suggested was that a simple planning application for change of use for the driveway to 'vehicle storage' prior to any problems could prevent such issues arising later on.

As for the cars themselves, due to the number it may be that they think you are running a business from your property, or if several are not running, they are being over zealous regarding 'waste'.

One last thought - are there any covenants on the property (more likely if it is a new(er) build) regarding vehicles & maintenance etc?

I do hope that you are able to sort all this out!

[Dyna]

Thanks for your nice replies.

I'm aware of the 10 year rule but I've not been living there that long. I'm also pretty convinced that it would been very hard for anyone to take advantage of the 10 year rule, you have to prove that the car haven't been moved in ten years and I think that is pretty impossible.

They inintially target me for running a business but I managed to prove I didn't. There is no covenants either so I'm home free in regards to that.

In the intial enforcment notice the the local planning authority infomed me that they would not approve a planning application for vehicle storage. This was to prevent me from appealing applying for a planning application.

I've not seen any definition yet to what is storage and what is parking? Temporary parking can still be long term, you could e.g. be parked at a airport longterm parking facility for a very long time as long as you pay.

Sincerely Dyna

[st5ve]

Do you run this as a business
Are the auth's saying that if you have in excess of x number of vehicles then it must be classed as a business
What about private collectors, I would advise you to contact one of the motoring magazines for collectors/classic cars and ask for some advice as they will have a legal team
Are you a member of any of the main motoring orginasations ie RAC or AA they may be able to offer legal advice, if you are a member of a union they sometimes offer free legal advice also failing that you may get some help at the CAB

[Dyna]

Hi Steve,

Thanks so much for your reply. It's 100% NOT a business, my local planning authority tried that angle first but failed. They then took the storage angle as a breach of planning law.

I've been in contact with the motoring press (it's actually run as a news bit in this weeks classic car weekly). However there is some law or similar limiting the press from voicing their opinion or helping you since this is what’s called an ongoing legal procedure. (I find this very funny since in my view this is a limit on the freedom of speech but I seen this in other instances reading new papers such as e.g. the Times).

Sorry to say I’m not a member of any large organization and I doubt joining AA or RAC now would help at all. I’m a consultant so I’m not a member of the union either. CAB can’t help either, tired that one but it’s totally impossible to get any response from them in the South of London, they are simply over run with all kinds of help seekers. Sorry to be negative but going somewhat public with this is my last desperate attempt to get some help.

Sincerely Dyna

Originally Posted by st5ve

Do you run this as a business
Are the auth's saying that if you have in excess of x number of vehicles then it must be classed as a business
What about private collectors, I would advise you to contact one of the motoring magazines for collectors/classic cars and ask for some advice as they will have a legal team
Are you a member of any of the main motoring orginasations ie RAC or AA they may be able to offer legal advice, if you are a member of a union they sometimes offer free legal advice also failing that you may get some help at the CAB

[lovejoy633]

I see you've made the front page of Classic Car Weekly :

http://www.classiccarweekly.co.uk/

and quite right to !!!!!!!

I see no reason why the LPA should be able to dictate how many cars you have on private property (when its not a business)

How did they come to be involved ? - neighbours complaint ?

[friedfrog]

A few years ago I decided to try and drive as many cars as possible by means of buying a car, running around in it for a few days to a few months, selling it on and then getting something else. Mostly I made a loss on the cars when sold on. I was investigated by several "bodies" and "accused" of running a business without declaring it, which I wasn't. Somewhere along the line I found out that a private individual would be deemed as being in "the motor trade" if he/she had more than 6 cars per yr registered in their name. (this was in 1997) so no idea if the same still applies. I got around it by registering cars in my wife, mums, dads, brother and sisters names which meant i could have as many as 36 cars per yr.

Do you see where i'm going with this?
It might not apply any longer, but it would be worth checking out to see wether it could be gotten around in that sort of way.

Best of luck.
Anthony.

[Dyna]

Hi LoveJoy

Yes, it was due to neighbor complaint - the type resembling "keeping up appearances". My other neighbor hasn't complaint but is rather a good friend.

Sad thing is that the press can't help, since there is some law stopping them from getting involved in a ongoing legal case.

CCW is also slightly wrong in the headline "Drivway storage banned" it's all storage that is banned. From what I can read in the PA enforcement notice it doesn't make any difference if it's inside or outside since it's about the usage. I will however consult a lawyer about this tomorrow.

Sincerely Dyna

Originally Posted by lovejoy633

I see you've made the front page of Classic Car Weekly :

http://www.classiccarweekly.co.uk/

and quite right to !!!!!!!

I see no reason why the LPA should be able to dictate how many cars you have on private property (when its not a business)

How did they come to be involved ? - neighbours complaint ?

[Dyna]

Hi FriedFrog,

Must been a few fun years testing them all, expensive although. Sorry to say I don't have relatives close by (they are very far far away) and all of my friends live in flats (London after all).

If I could store three cars at some farmer or similar south of London I would be home free although. So if anybody knows anyone... That along with haveing three more cars tax, insured and ready to go on a moments notice will make it very hard for them to enfoce it since I would simply drive them off my property as soon as I see an inspector. This is not what I want although since it's a big big hassle especially if I'm away.

Sincerely Dyna

Originally Posted by friedfrog

A few years ago I decided to try and drive as many cars as possible by means of buying a car, running around in it for a few days to a few months, selling it on and then getting something else. Mostly I made a loss on the cars when sold on. I was investigated by several "bodies" and "accused" of running a business without declaring it, which I wasn't. Somewhere along the line I found out that a private individual would be deemed as being in "the motor trade" if he/she had more than 6 cars per yr registered in their name. (this was in 1997) so no idea if the same still applies. I got around it by registering cars in my wife, mums, dads, brother and sisters names which meant i could have as many as 36 cars per yr.

Do you see where i'm going with this?
It might not apply any longer, but it would be worth checking out to see wether it could be gotten around in that sort of way.

Best of luck.
Anthony.