Amazon: 1964 Amazon 122S restoration project

[Bob Meadows]

Alan:~
Not sure if this is any use to you.
At one time I used the Argon/Co2 mix, on rental from BOC: once the major welding repairs had been completed the rental costs became uneconomical.

I went over to a Pub sized Co2 bottle without any problems- never found any
difference in the welds even on thinner panels (also welded small stainless items with this gas & stainless wire, no problems)

The Pub bottles work out very economical and for my use better than the small
gas cylinders---
It may be harder finding a pub!
Regards Bob.

[Steve 940]

Hi Bob,

Sorry to hijack this thread, but your mention of pub gas got me thinking, as Ive have an old (Whitbread) bottle that I've had for over 30 years+ clogging up my shed.

Have you found it ok to swap bottles with a local friendly landlord??

When I last swapped it some 30+ years ago, my local landlord changed it for free, no quibbles. Mind you we spend a few quid over his bar😀

Dare say legislation may have intervened in the meantime, as I had been looking to update my MIG set up with BOC Argoshield, but they are quite expensive for rental and refill.

Cheers
Steve

[Bob Meadows]

Hi Steve:~
Apologies if the last mail is a bit misleading- The pub bottle came from a pub/club via a friend, complete with the regulator.
These bottles will also take a normal regulator.
(Must be loads of these things unused at present)
As you have the bottle it may be worth asking the local for a favour- exchange etc and pay the gas bill!

The refills are done by a local gas supplier- you just return the empty bottle to the depot and take a full replacement, your original remains in their stock until they get a few ready for re-gassing.

I suppose you could have the original filled but they all tend to look the same- not found a good looking one yet!

Hope it helps.
Regards Bob.

[Steve 940]

Many thanks Bob, most helpful.

I'll have a word with my local, although in the last 30 years the regulator has vanished, but looks as though you can still get online.

Cheers
Steve

[Bob Meadows]

Hi Steve:~
If you can get the pub regulator all well and good.
The normal larger cylinder regulators will also fit- thread sizes & sealing are all standard so a couple of options etc.
Regards Bob.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Juular

Everything previous (including all of the 240) was done with solid 0.6mm wire and Hobbyweld 5 gas.

The recent work on the amazon was 0.8mm flux core from Lidl, and I have now moved on to a roll of 0.6mm Lidl flux core (which seems to be very difficult to find!).

The gas welds are significantly neater than the flux core ones, mainly because of the bead pattern and the fact that the flux core leaves behind slag and a lot of splattering. It's also more difficult to see what you're doing with flux core, as the weld pool is obscured somewhat by the melting flux and splatter. It takes a bit of getting used to.

The flux core also seems to run hotter (even on 0.6mm) which means the risk of blowing through is higher, so it's more difficult to lay a neat bead and sometimes you have to do a fair bit of filling in with the wire. You also have to work slower, or work in a star pattern, moving between different areas to prevent one part from overheating.

Saying that however, the flux core is massively easier to deal with in terms of not having to constantly lug the huge gas bottle around and reposition it every time you move to a different area. It sounds like a small thing, but psychologically it makes going out and working on the car a completely different game. If I had a welding trolley I'd probably not be bothered as much.

When working outside, even though the gas weld is much neater, I've found it very frustrating when even the slightest breeze comes along and you end up with big popcorn-like porous welds that you have to grind right back. In the end, the lack of neatness from flux core is offset by not needing to stop and wait every time the wind gets up.

It's been a windy summer here and I've spent the majority of it not working on the Amazon for that reason, so I thought flux core was worth a shot just to get some work done. I've been very impressed so far, and the Lidl wire is really superb, especially the 0.6.

Down to the nitty gritty, the flux core welds are just as good underneath the appearance as the shielded ones, and that's really what matters.

Thank you Juular, that is really helpful.

I use the small, disposable argon/CO2 cylinders - they are quite expensive but very convenient for small jobs. They are fine for little jobs, which is more or less all I do - but it does mean I have to remember to order some more from time to time, so I may get a couple of reels of the 0.6mm flux type. We have a Lidl store nearby, I don't know whether they normally stock it but I'll have a look next time I'm in town.

Many thanks,

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Bob Meadows

Alan:~
Not sure if this is any use to you.
At one time I used the Argon/Co2 mix, on rental from BOC: once the major welding repairs had been completed the rental costs became uneconomical.

I went over to a Pub sized Co2 bottle without any problems- never found any
difference in the welds even on thinner panels (also welded small stainless items with this gas & stainless wire, no problems)

The Pub bottles work out very economical and for my use better than the small
gas cylinders---
It may be harder finding a pub!
Regards Bob.

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Hi Bob,

Sorry to hijack this thread, but your mention of pub gas got me thinking, as Ive have an old (Whitbread) bottle that I've had for over 30 years+ clogging up my shed.

Have you found it ok to swap bottles with a local friendly landlord??

When I last swapped it some 30+ years ago, my local landlord changed it for free, no quibbles. Mind you we spend a few quid over his bar😀

Dare say legislation may have intervened in the meantime, as I had been looking to update my MIG set up with BOC Argoshield, but they are quite expensive for rental and refill.

Cheers
Steve

Many thanks chaps,

At the moment I use the small, disposable type cylinders, which are very convenient indeed but a bit expensive. I may try some of the Lidl 0.6 flux type that Juular suggests.

If I had a bigger job (like a restoration rather than the little repair jobs I tend to do at the mo) it would make sense to acquire a pub cylinder - I'll make enquiries to see if anyone has one locally.

Do you find any difference in using CO2 rather than an argon mix?

Many thanks,

Alan

[Juular]

Originally Posted by Bob Meadows

Alan:~
I went over to a Pub sized Co2 bottle without any problems- never found any
difference in the welds even on thinner panels (also welded small stainless items with this gas & stainless wire, no problems)

Anecdotally I've heard this too. If I could find a supply of cheap CO2 I'd make the switch, it makes more sense than paying a bottle rental plus refills for Argon.

The hobbyweld bottles aren't ruinous though. The initial lump sum for the bottle hire is hard to reconcile, but the refills are around £40 which isn't bad for a large bottle that will easily last an entire restoration project. There's no ongoing hire charge, so it's a bit like owning a Calor gas bottle.

[Juular]

Originally Posted by Othen

We have a Lidl store nearby, I don't know whether they normally stock it but I'll have a look next time I'm in town.

It's a seasonal item in the middle aisle. At the moment they seem to be doing cheap stick welders, helmets etc but no wire last time I checked.

I've burned through a roll of the cheap SIP 0.8 flux core wire too and it was absolutely fine. I rebuilt the boot floor and inner arches of my Peugeot 205 using this and that was a tricky job with French steel the thickness of cigarette paper. On a Volvo with its top quality steel it becomes a completely different job, much easier!

Halfords have the SIP 0.8mm for £8.50 a roll at the moment which is good value.

[Juular]

Oh yeah, just a quick tip I picked up while using the 0.8mm.

If you find yourself blowing through a lot, I find a two-stage tack process works better. Let me explain..

When working thin metal I usually lay a series of joined up tacks to form the weld beads, rather than a constant stream of weld which inevitably blows a hole.

With 0.6mm it's a case of ZAP.. move a little bit.. ZAP. You can tell how long the tack needs to be by the penetration on the other side.

With 0.8mm I find a short zap followed by the full ZAP makes a better weld with far less likelihood of blowing through. So it's zap-ZAP.. move.. zap-ZAP.

The theory in my mind is you're laying a little bit of initial weld which thickens the weld area enough to cope with the extra heat from the full penetration tack.