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Advanced/Performance Driving Courses?

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Old May 5th, 2021, 13:40   #31
S60D5-185
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Another one that stuck with me but needs to be applied with much caution is looking ahead at telegraph poles on approaching a bend to get some advance idea as to how severe it is.

This second one is also still very apt

Slow in fast out

Fast in, Hospital out

As has been said, an earlier copy of roadcraft has much more in it
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Old May 5th, 2021, 15:18   #32
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Ilmiont
As you're in Oxfordshire had you looked at what Silverstone has to offer? Probably not the complete package you're looking for in one day but they do a variety of experiences like skid pan, performance cars, single seaters and track days at reasonable cost, you might well end up doing a few days and then having to put together the bits you learn.

silverstone.co.uk/drive

Your approach of trying to find some good tuition is to be applauded, there's a lot of us old farts here who can be a bit huffy about careful driving, but I for one will admit much of my ability has unfortunately come from getting into sticky situations on the road and learning from them, and with millions of miles in cars, vans and trucks I still find myself learning little bits here and there.
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Old May 5th, 2021, 20:36   #33
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Originally Posted by tofufi View Post
We use CAT driver training, based at Millbrook proving ground, for work.

Would recommend, but they're not cheap. No idea how much they charge for individuals, but would be interested to know.
Thanks for suggesting this, I hadn't found them before and Millbrook's only about 50 miles from me.

Their Road Driving Academy does look compelling. Six levels at varying prices; not sure if they need to be done sequentially or not:

- L1 - Advanced Driver Training - £550
- L2 - Advanced Control - £1050
- L3 - Advanced Performance - £1430
- L4 - Skid Control & Over Grip Limit Recovery - £995
- L5 - Optimisation - £1575
- L6 - Advanced Control Master - £870

The latter parts are explicitly about skid recovery, dynamics, precision, sixth sense and "be as one with your car." It looks like the most fitting option so far; thanks all for your recommendations, this thread is becoming very useful. Not cheap though (but then I don't expect this to be).

---

Generally - thanks all, seems we're getting somewhere now. Lots of helpful reading list material, video playlists and possible course options emerging.

@acshortt5 notes there are at least three different aspects of this, and two different limits to consider. Out of those 3 points listed (what the car can do, improve driving technique, improve perception skills), the second is the most important to me right now, and the third is something I feel like I have a duty to do. I'm hopeful the first might come about while pursuing the second on a closed course; to be clear by "at the limit" I'm more interested in limits of grip, than limits of fifth gear.

@DaveNP have looked at Silverstone track days previously but wasn't aware they did coaching too. 1:1 own-car coaching seems to be £849 for a day.

Website is a bit light on details of the approach used but might be worth an enquiry. I'm about 60-90 mins from Silverstone so closer than other suggestions so far. Normally trip distance doesn't bother me, but I am trying to allow for the possibility of being unfit for a long drive on the public road after doing an intensive course.

Not sure where Reg Local is based from his website but looks like it may be a very long way north! I think I'll spend a lot of time with the books and videos though...

---

Cats eyes - knew that previously! Can't remember where I first read it.

I didn't know Roadcraft had been watered down. The website shows major editions in 1977, 1994, 2007, 2013, 2020, so is 1994 the one to get?
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Old May 5th, 2021, 21:00   #34
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...

@DaveNP have looked at Silverstone track days previously but wasn't aware they did coaching too. 1:1 own-car coaching seems to be £849 for a day.

...
Ouch
My comment of 'reasonable cost' was based on their entry level, come and have fun, type days, my wife bought one for me a couple of years back but unfortunately life got in the way and I never made it. But I suppose even £849 for a day of individual tuition isn't too bad these days when one considers the instructors wages, back office costs, use of the track etc etc, and then compare it to the hourly labour rates charged for a mechanic in a workshop.
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Old May 6th, 2021, 22:30   #35
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I think for performance driving look at track courses, track days, even quick go karts where you’d learn so much about car control which is transferable to a road car. Advanced road driving comes across as so boring from the IAM and is focussed on the Roadcraft dogma of feeding the wheel as I expect most road-based courses would be. I didn’t do a full course but on an observed drive was told to drive in third gear at 60mph at all times - who’d do that in real life? For performance driving it’s racing tips you want.
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Old May 6th, 2021, 23:04   #36
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On the contrary, 'S60RDesign' advanced driving is far from boring - every drive is different and an opportunity to hone skills that may one day save yours - or someone else's - life.

Regarding driving in third gear at 60 MPH at all times: the context in which your observer made that comment would be helpful. Some of the cars that I have owned in the past were incapable of reaching sixty in third. Should not one instead drive at a speed which is both within one's own capabilities and those of the vehicle, always bearing in mind road and weather conditions, prevailing speed limit and distance that one can see to be clear, and then to select whichever gear is most appropriate to the conditions?

Regards, John.
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Old May 7th, 2021, 00:14   #37
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No wonder you didn't complete the course 'S60RDesign', with that sort of advice. From your post it looks as if you got one of the observers with their set in stone outdated views. I agree with John, Advanced Road Driving is anything but boring for anyone wishing to learn new techniques, at least it shouldn't be. As with learning any new skill, first you have got to want to do it, and secondly it should be done in a fun and easy going but firm atmosphere conducive to the learning process, leaving the candidate looking forward to the next session, rather than the 'thou should do it this way, big stick approach'.

I've never come across the '60' everywhere advice, and as John mentioned the correct gear is the one giving flexibility for the current circumstance. Feeding the wheel, or as Mr. Clarkson used to call advocates of advanced driving 'wheel shufflers' has long been consigned to the bin. Now you can use any method as long as it is safe and provides predictable outcomes. Myself I use pull/push (feeding the wheel) most of the time as I find it a smooth and predictable way of steering with a bit of fixed grip now and again.

It does sound as if you didn't have such a pleasant experience 'S60', and if that is the case I'm truly sorry.
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Old May 7th, 2021, 09:35   #38
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My preference is for high-torque at low revs engines and trying to select a gear that keeps me below peak torque as far as possible; modern diesels seem to be so highly geared that you need to drop two gears to get any lift. My IAM observer advised holding 3rd gear in town at 30MPH (this was in my 240GLT) but would have been appalled had I been driving at 60MPH in 3rd since IPSGA is the basic mantra and the "G" stands for Gear - select the appropriate one for the circumstances. Accelerating from 60MPH in 3rd might have been acceptable.

It might be worth checking with your county council about road safety courses; Cheshire used to offer classroom-based ones with the opportunity to have your driving critiqued by a Police Driving Instructor during a 1-hour drive.
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Old May 7th, 2021, 11:23   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S60RDesign View Post
I think for performance driving look at track courses, track days, even quick go karts where you’d learn so much about car control which is transferable to a road car. Advanced road driving comes across as so boring from the IAM and is focussed on the Roadcraft dogma of feeding the wheel as I expect most road-based courses would be. I didn’t do a full course but on an observed drive was told to drive in third gear at 60mph at all times - who’d do that in real life? For performance driving it’s racing tips you want.
I have heard (albeit a long time ago) there can be a lot of variation in the guidance that you get from IAM observers in different areas...

Telling people to drive at 60mph in 3rd gear at all times is bizarre and ridiculous though.

J
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Old May 7th, 2021, 12:14   #40
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Quote:
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I have heard (albeit a long time ago) there can be a lot of variation in the guidance that you get from IAM observers in different areas...

Telling people to drive at 60mph in 3rd gear at all times is bizarre and ridiculous though.

J
That was indeed so, James.

40 odd years ago, one joined a local group and received 'guidance' on observed drives from a (newly) qualified member until they considered one ready for the test. One then went out with the group's Chief Observer and, if they concurred, made application for the test.

On passing the test, one was then encouraged to reciprocate by offering guidance to a new associate member. While I subsequently took a number of people out, I failed with only one - a young lady who had just been awarded her first company car, a new Marina if I remember correctly!

She was required by her company to do the IAM course for insurance purposes - in much the same way as they also required her to carry a first aid kit and a fire extinguisher. Her heart was clearly not in it. She had little respect for speed limits and, like 'S60RDessign', found the sessions boring and a complete waste of her time. As 'MikeGMT' said, there must be a willingness to learn, and the right attitude is everything.

The model that I have described was very much 'of it's time', but, while it successfully introduced many to advanced driving, it could also lead to the inconsistencies in guidance to which James alluded. The IAM has been aware of this failing for some considerable time, and, in an attempt to rectify the situation, has tightened up considerably on the rules and qualifications required of all observers. There is now a formal training course and qualification which all observers are required to undertake, which should result in a much more consistent approach to guidance sessions. Please see the link below for more information if this is something that might appeal to you.

Regards, John.

https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaig...comeanobserver
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