Spend Money On Keeping A High-Miler On The Road, Or...?

[Prufrock]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

As Benjamin Disraeli put it: "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.".

I agree that the statistics you quote seem, on the face of it support your case - of which I remain to be convinced, '57RKL'. The flaw, as I see it, in these figures is that you have used the same Reference Period in each case.

Given that the 2 series was introduced in 1974, the oldest car would already have been potentially 36 years old in 2010. Similarly, as the 7 series was introduced 10 years later in 1984, the equivalent car would have been 'only' 26 years old. The oldest 9, introduced in 1991, could only have been a maximum of 19 years old at the time these figures were compiled.

It is reasonable to assume that the younger the car at the time of the survey, the more that are likely to be still on the road. I would suggest that your figures would have more credence if you were to compare the survival rates of cars of the same age, rather than at a fixed point in time.

I have no argument with your selected period for the 9 series, but believe that a corresponding period for the survival of 2 series cars from 1993 - 8, and for 7 series from 2003 - 8, might have been more representative.

Kind regards, John.

Some interesting points you raise JW.

When I posted the production metrics I was aware of the periods in which the various models were in production, which is why I chose periods (for the 240 and 940) that were in line with the introduction of the 7). DoT metrics will be drawn from DVLA stats which are notoriously unreliable, and how do we define a survivor?

There might be an interesting debate to be had here, although the thread has gone way off topic.

Jon.

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Some interesting points you raise JW.

When I posted the production metrics I was aware of the periods in which the various models were in production, which is why I chose periods (for the 240 and 940) that were in line with the introduction of the 7). DoT metrics will be drawn from DVLA stats which are notoriously unreliable, and how do we define a survivor?

There might be an interesting debate to be had here, although the thread has gone way off topic.

Jon.

I agree on both counts, Jon, but threads do sometimes tend to drift off topic as they develop.

Briefly, my view in this instance is that a 'survivor' may be defined as any remaining example of a particular model that either is - or has the potential to be - roadworthy, with the possible exception of those already in the process of being broken up for spares.

Regards, John.

[Prufrock]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

Briefly, my view in this instance is that a 'survivor' may be defined as any remaining example of a particular model that either is - or has the potential to be - roadworthy, with the possible exception of those already in the process of being broken up for spares.
Regards, John.

Agreed John. My own 745 is a survivor but off the road at present awaiting for new trailing arms (which I have) to be fitted - sadly failing it's last MoT as the spring cups in the arms had corroded (not bad for 30 years though).

Still trying to source a replacement for the not-very-nice, but very 80s sun hatch - anyone know where I can source a new one ?

Jon
700/900 Register Keeper VOC.

[57RKL]

Originally Posted by Prufrock

It was an assumption until you provided this very questionable evidence. Plus, you imply that the demise of the 700 series is due to quality of the plastics - how does any evidence, let alone these DoT metrics, support that claim?

Jon.

First my claims were an assumption ? Now the D.O.T statistics are questionable ? Being familiar with your posts for a few years, I knew this was going to be difficult for you to accept. But as previously mentioned, you've been banging on over the superiority of pre facelift 740s over basically any other Volvo ever built for ever, and its clearly wrong.. Having a couple of 740s left to you in old age does not qualify you as the authority on the general merits of 740s never mind models you have never owned. Its now convenient for you to call "off topic" but your not getting off the hook that easy.

There is a durability problem with Volvo 740 not shared with the Volvo 240 or 940. We know the 740 doesn't rust, but the interior falls apart in old age unlike the 240. The electrics / loom is umreliable.It's not desirable as the 940 though essentially the same car as the 740, the 940 is cheap to buy but a much nicer car, having a lasting quality interior and far superior engines.

This is naturally having an impact on the survival rate of 740s compared its younger and older RWD brothers. It will continue to disappear at a proportionally faster rate than the 940 until just the very best are left, and they will be mainly sedans.

(Over)

[Prufrock]

Originally Posted by 57RKL

First my claims were an assumption ? Now the D.O.T statistics are questionable ? Being familiar with your posts for a few years, I knew this was going to be difficult for you to accept. But as previously mentioned, you've been banging on over the superiority of pre facelift 740s over basically any other Volvo ever built for ever, and its clearly wrong.. Having a couple of 740s left to you in old age does not qualify you as the authority on the general merits of 740s never mind models you have never owned. Its now convenient for you to call "off topic" but your not getting off the hook that easy.

There is a durability problem with Volvo 740 not shared with the Volvo 240 or 940. We know the 740 doesn't rust, but the interior falls apart in old age unlike the 240. The electrics / loom is umreliable.It's not desirable as the 940 though essentially the same car as the 740, the 940 is cheap to buy but a much nicer car, having a lasting quality interior and far superior engines.

This is naturally having an impact on the survival rate of 740s compared its younger and older RWD brothers. It will continue to disappear at a proportionally faster rate than the 940 until just the very best are left, and they will be mainly sedans.

(Over)

Firstly, where is your evidence/experience that 700 interiors fall apart in old age ?

Second point, your claims were not supported by any evidence except your desire to score points. Third, anyone (clearly not you) who works with, or is familiar with the DVLA data will know that it is full of anomalies. Fourth point, I suggest you read John Wigley's response to your post(s), which you've conveniently ignored.

I have possibly the oldest 745 in the UK that was bought near new by my Wife's Dad (I do apologise for the repetition) but it was not left to me in old age...he gave it to me in 2010 when I gave him my 2003 V70 as he needed a replacement (make of that what you will).

I have known this 745 from when he bought it - at the time I was working with Volvo running their contract hire fleet (which included many 700s among other things) and working with their fleet customers until 1993; this is what gives me some authority - I was driving a red 744T at this time.

None of the 740s I have actually owned (6) have had their interiors fall apart, they've all had few owners and interiors have been undamaged - just like the 700s I currently have. Two 700s (1 X 744, 1 X 745) once owned by me are now owned by VOC/forum members.

The 940s have the same basic engines so they're not superior, the turbocharged versions make the 940 more desirable for some (not me). You've actually agreed with me on one thing I've banged on about for some time; and that is the future survival rate of 744s over 745s.

It is a great shame that you're unable to put together an argument with being so belligerent.

Jon
700/900 Register Keeper VOC.

[john.wigley]

It's 'Wigley', Jon, a lot of people put an 'r' into it!

I'm very sorry if my responses to '57RKL' may have been seen by some as contentious - they were not meant to be. Unlike you, I do not any authority or expert knowledge; like you, I do write from the experience of continuous long-term ownership of the 7 series cars.

Two in particular stand out. My wife bought her '87 744GLE as a 'trade sale' from a local dealer at 10 years and 180k miles. She ran the car for 15 years and 70k miles with very few problems. When she sold it, the (cloth) interior was in good shape, although the head lining had degraded and sagged badly - we think that a previous owner's smoking habit may have exacerbated this.

My '87 745GLE was bought at 10.5 years with 96k miles. I ran this car until January this year, when I sold it to 'minty' with 170k on the clock. The (cloth) interior of that car, although grubby, was also in good condition - even the two-stage seat heaters still worked! The head lining in that car was just starting to degrade and billow at the back - but it was 28.5 years old! The only reason I parted with this car was that it needed £400+ worth of welding to pass the MOT, with a warning that it would probably require more next year. That was a personal decision with which I do not expect everyone to agree. As I have said before, we would have no hesitation buying a late 9 series or V90 if the right car came along.

Whilst I would not use the phrase 'banging on', I would urge you to continue to champion these fine cars, and - for one - thank you for it.

Regards, John.

[Prufrock]

Apologies for the unwanted r John - duly amended. Contentious and thought provoking comments are welcome - always.

Jon
700/900 Register Keeper VOC.

[stephend]

My tuppence h'apenny-worth. On mine (1989, 215k miles), the headlining's shot, one or two bits of plastic trim have gone brittle and snapped off, and the driver's seat is slightly saggy. But most of that's cosmetic and doesn't affect the comfort or practicality - and I'm sure the seat just needs a new foam pad, which I note from another thread is still available!

On the other hand, the seats are still extremely comfortable, and the load bay is supremely practical. Not just in terms of space, but in terms of how usable the space is, how even and rigid the floor etc: it's far better designed from that PoV than either the V40 or my Avensis.

I don't think that's a bad showing for a 27 year old car!

The one thing that does let the side down, to my mind, is the instrument cluster problems, different variants of which seem to affect both 700s and 900s. On mine, it's the fuel gauge (non-op), the speedo (intermittently flakey, mostly in damp weather), and one backlight that never seems to work for long. I'm giving serious thought to sending it off to BBA-Reman and getting them to have a go at it!

[Prufrock]

I'd be interested to know what plastics have broken, do you suppose partly as a result of age and partly through use?

On both my cars it's only the fuel gauge that's intermittent, I don't consider this serious enough to worry about. My speedometers are fine, perhaps yours is a VDO and maybe more prone to faults than the Yazaki (mainly fitted to earlier 700s).

Headlining well, time-consuming if you do it, BUT one thing is for sure you'll not need to replace it for another couple of decades! I think it's great that you're still improving the car - recycling or upcycling?

Jon
700/900 Register Keeper VOC.

[stephend]

Plastics: cracks in the dash, around the demister vents; various bits of plastic trim around the rear seat latches etc (in fairness, a lot of heavy boxes have been humped in and out over them over the last few years!); plastic trim round the tailgate interior handle when I took it off to repair the lock; and the triangle covering the n/s door mirror fixings which broke when I levered it off to replace the mirror after it was viciously attacked by a pheasant! I think some of the plastics are a bit prone to becoming brittle; probably due to UV exposure.

Instrument cluster: not 100% sure, but I think mine is the Yazaki one.

The longer-term plan (back on topic!) is to do a light-ish rolling restoration, generally to tidy it up and also to tackle some corrosion before it gets too entrenched (around the w/screen, around the radiator, places on the inner wings...). But it needs to see me through another house move, so it'll probably be next year rather than this. Not aiming for BKV standard, just to keep it good for the next 30 years!