Modifications to my V70 T5...

>Dynos are all well and good, and provide good efficient maps,
>but in my opinion on the road is the best way to do it. How
>many dynos do you get to check how a car behaves on a 4 sprint
>jaunt between 5 roundabouts etc, the sort of stuff you would
>do in the real world.
>
>IMO, always on the road, test on the dynos for pub figs.
>
>Ross

Ross,

Measuring and adjusting fueling is fine on the road. The problem with road tuning is that you cannot see the results of your adjustment in terms of the exact improvements made. For example, mapping ignition on the road is very difficult, but much easier on the dyno as you can see the results instantly and adjust accordingly. Also, the dyno will give you worst case scenarios, ie when you push the car very hard, so you know it's safe.

But yes, you also need to tweak on the road due to air flow and temps being different, and as you rightly say a dyno cannot simulate road condition.

Oh, and one other important aspect - safety! You can tune a car on the dyno without worrying about other road users, and knowing that on the dyno your license will still be intact when you're doing 170 mph.

The bottom line is that proper tuning requires tuning the car on the dyno and on the road.

Adam.

[pyaap]

>The problem with road tuning is that you cannot see the results of
>your adjustment in terms of the exact improvements made. For
>example, mapping ignition on the road is very difficult, but
>much easier on the dyno as you can see the results instantly
>and adjust accordingly.

This rather surprises me because with good data logging equipment, it should be possible to log all the required data and then make the appropriate adjustments (ignition included) and even with regards to an estimation of power, it appears to be possible - have a look at the following link on the Dynostar:
(http://www.roadtune.co.uk/dynostar.shtml

When my car was done, various data log plots were superimposed to see what differences there were and the necessary adjustments were made on the road and that included a pretty accurate estimation or power based on the data that was logged.

>Oh, and one other important aspect - safety! You can tune a
>car on the dyno without worrying about other road users, and
>knowing that on the dyno your license will still be intact
>when you're doing 170 mph.

Since even dyno runs are usually done in 4th gear, I'm surprised to hear that you reach speeds of up to 170mph but driving at those kinds of speeds is never a good idea, even when you're in a Volvo!! :-)

BTW, have you had a think about the questions on injector duty cycle I raised earlier? I'm curious to know what typical duty cycles you get at WOT when using uprgaded software, and it may also be useful information for anyone considering upgrading to larger injectors.

>This rather surprises me because with good data logging
>equipment, it should be possible to log all the required data
>and then make the appropriate adjustments (ignition included)
>and even with regards to an estimation of power, it appears to
>be possible - have a look at the following link on the
>Dynostar:
>(http://www.roadtune.co.uk/dynostar.shtml

Ashok, I said it's *much easier* and safer on the dyno. And without question, it is. I'm fully aware of data logging of all info, which at the end of the day can be used on the road as well as on the dyno. A dyno still gives you more accurate readings of instantaneous changes. I know because I use both methods. If engine and chassis dynos were so pointless for tuning, no-one would use them. They have their place. Let's face it, all the major Volvo software developers use some sort of dyno, be it engine or chassis, including RICA, TME, and BSR, not to mention the car makers themselves and the countless race teams in the world.

>Since even dyno runs are usually done in 4th gear, I'm
>surprised to hear that you reach speeds of up to 170mph but
>driving at those kinds of speeds is never a good idea, even
>when you're in a Volvo!! :-)
>

You can reach 170 mph in 5th, 130 mph in 4th. Don't forget, it's not just Volvos that go on the dyno. Like you say, most dyno testing is done in 4th, but even at 130 mph, I would rather not have to worry about my license or other road users.

You seem to think I'm against road tuning. I'm not. I'm simply saying that the best results are achieved with dyno and road tuning combined.

Adam.

[pyaap]

Hi Adam,

I'm not saying that you're against road tuning, you've stated several times that you use both and quoted your reasons for them; that is fair enough. I'm just stating my experience of road tuning, which has been excellent. You have to realise that the weather conditions here are ideal for both. I have received feedback from owners in the far east who had custom maps done on the road and beause the climate is so hot there, on the dyno, power increases have been minimal whilst on the road, the cars are able to pull at least 20mph more speed over fixed distances that they are used to - hence the on road differences are substantial. Now, if these guys were to get their cars mapped on a dyno, it would definitely yield false readings on which to formulate base maps. Hence, my point is there are circumstances in which both can be utilised but if forced to pick one, I think the benefits of road mapping far outweigh those of dyno mapping.

In addition, you need to consider the added costs of using a dyno. I recall you mentioning it takes an entire day to map a car properly on your dyno. At the rate of £120 + VAT per hour as advertised on your website, that could easily push over £1100 for the mapping alone, which would be prohibitively expensive for me.

Finally, I would very much appreciate your comments on the injector duty cycle front because if in your experience, stock T5 injectors are sufficient for 250-300whp, then the calculation charts I've based my formulations on (from injector manufacturers in the USA) are wrong and I need to have another look at them.

[Ross9]

Thanks for the reply Adam, I made my post without a huge deal of thought due to a lot of Pierre Smirnoffs finest lol, sorry if it seemed I was having a dig.

I can see what you are saying about the dyno tuning etc, and obviously it has it's uses, I just find that doing it on the road is a better way for me personaly, and dont worry, we push it just as hard on the road as it would do on a dyno, if not harder ;) private roads obviously.

The garage that built my car doesnt have a dyno, but they do lots of mapping etc and make some cracking cars, these are mapped on the road, ignition, fuelling, etc using a laptop and a wide band.

As for the speed etc, therein I do agree, while I don't mind personally, some of the speeds attained while thoroughly mapping a car on the road are a tad on the illegal side, so not for everyone.

anyway, again, nice spec Al

Ross

Ross,

No worries - I knew you weren't having a dig! While on the subject, another reason when dyno tuning is useful is if the car is a not road legal. We do get quite a few pure race cars, including Hamish's own, for which the dyno is ideal.

Ashok,

You made me realise that my web site needs to be amended because the pricing is confusing. You wouldn't actually pay that at all, unless you came to me with a car that I had not tuned before. One way we can do this (there are other ways too), is to simply tweak a tuned map. So rather than start from scratch, I simply start with a tuned map and work from there. I don't have to re-invent the wheel then and the process is much faster. Your quote about the time required for proper mapping mainly applies to when developing software for a new car. Don't worry, I will answer your duty cycle question later.

Adam.

[Wobbly Dave]

>Glad to know you're enjoying the car Dave. I agree that
>custom maps are the way to go to get the best out of the car,
>especially when you've got other 'bits' fitted. How long did
>it collectively take to get yours mapped up to that kind of
>power? I spent an entire day on mine because it was mapped
>from scratch and I was shattered at the end of it, but it was
>well worth it! Do you know which type / size of injectors you
>have in your car and what their duty cycle is particularly
>when you're pushing 1.3bar? Since you've had some custom
>maps, I'm assuming this data must have been logged or
>monitored before the necessary changes. Hope you can make it
>for the July meet.

I have some knowledge of the T5 but as for duty cycles - well it is something I will leave to the experts (Hamish and Co!). I believe there were many runs and they took their time getting it just right.

I am not sure either about the injectors apart from to say they are the ones fitted to an 850R.

I discussed the upgrade at great length - coz I am nosy that way but ultimately I leave the final decisions with those in the know.

These are the facts
She is an 850R estate with average mileage for the year (157K currently). I never put anything other than optimax in the tank. There is not much mechanically - save the block and head that have not been serviced in some way. I am running NGK BKR7EVX plugs with completely replace ignition system (apart from the coil). The oil is Valvoline fully synth 5W40 and is replaced at every 5K or sooner. I have Eibach springs and monroe shocks (which are fab). They dont make a difference to the ride height but handle superbly.
She has a new AT gearbox recon as of last Oct. I have an auxillary ATF cooler and change the fluid regularly, as I feel that heat stress is the main cause of AT failures.

She is big red and a volvo - hence the site - LOL!

BTW before I am accuse of going OT I think Ali's car is pretty special.

[foggyjames]

Ross:
>every bit of settign up has been done on the road
>with a wide band lambda up the tailpipe

How have you found it to be in terms of lag?

I'm a dyno guy (mainly because I tend to do big changes all in one go, so the advantage of 'free dyno time' on the road isn't as significant), but I'm far from against road tuning. I'm just curious, because everyone I know that does it uses a WB02 in a bung in the downpipe to counteract lag.

cheers

James

[Ross9]

Not found any problems to be honest.

readout has lambda value, AFR value, and a bar along the bottom for a visual guide as to the richness.

Obviously we were only setting a fuel pressure reg, not doing a map, but I know marc does it the same way when doing maps for cars as well, up the tailpipe not in a bung, so there must be minimal to no lag. Perhaps it depends on the flow, most cars by the time he is mapping them have pretty non existant restrictions in exhaust, everything is fairly shifting along flow wise, but I'm just specualting.

Ross

[Dan F]

Looking forward to the duty cycle info myself. Then at least I can make a more informed decision.

Later,
Dan.