Engine 850: B5254S/2.4/20v: Please help me - Timing problems..

[K6dude]

It's that noise that bothers me...electrics are not usually responsible for that sort of thing....still makes me think that one of the pumps is wonky some how.
Perhaps, the higher compression on one cylinder is actually an indicator of the problem...a cylinder ring/seal not quite right...some metal or grit in the block? Did you fit new cylinder rings? could be something that simple, and in these cases it usually is something basic!

Maybe at the point at which that particular cylinder is getting stuck, it is trying to move something else that is not so free moving like a bent dizzy spindle or pump component?

I will go away and think on it a while.

Mike

[K6dude]

Hi again, just remembered in the distant past, reading something about this topic....here is the bit I archived in my PC.... about the Safrane having the Volvo lump under the bonnet.......

"It should be noted however that while the Volvo engine designs would externally appear to be a domestic Volvo, there are apparently minor differences which mean that normal Volvo parts or tools cannot be used. On the 5 cylinder engine, the twin camshaft wheels are different to those of the Volvo 850 and thus when changing the Timing belt normal Volvo locking tools can not be used. This can cause severe confusion for many mechanics who find a surprise when attempting maintenance. The 2.5 engine is also actually a 2.4 being 2435 cc."


Hope this helps

Mike

[dinky1]

Originally Posted by strbryan

Looking a the resent pictures you have posted I'm still thinking that the cam wheels have been fitted incorrectly. i.e The inlet cam wheel has been fitted to the exhaust cam.

Yup.. Thats what I said... although maybe I should of used the word swap in hingsight instead of switched - apologies for the confusion.

Yes basically they've (I'll get it right this time) swapped them over. No explanation in the docs for this, so why on earth they did it I'll never know.

Yes this engine had a bolt drilled out. After that I also had to put another gasket there and putting the pump back in again.. I had another torque wrench failure (I'm not exactly lucky). This time I ended up having all 7 water pump bolt holes drilled and helicoils installed.

I do have a spare engine.. unfortunately however it isn't in a runnable condition itself. Its been sat out in the open for a while under a plastic sheet on a pallet. Last time I looked the spark plug holes had water in them (I managed to get some of that out with a sponge). That engine is/was a bit of an old dog tbh. Sure it always fired up but there always seemed to be a noticable lack of power from it compared to the one I'm trying to get running again. I also don't have a cambelt kit for it. It has a hydraullic tensioner not an automatic one like the current engine and I also used it for several dummy run cambelt replacements so in truth I'm not even sure IF it would run now anyway.

I've pretty much got the car back together now. Just the exhaust, one track rod end, and some bolts to do up and then the wheels can go on ready for it to be dragged onto the low loader for Thursday. If Renault can't find the fault when it returns to them after 12 years then it looks like it'll be coming back as a remote controlled lockable shed on wheels. I really don't know what to do with it now.

[dinky1]

Originally Posted by K6dude

It's that noise that bothers me...electrics are not usually responsible for that sort of thing....still makes me think that one of the pumps is wonky some how.

It's definitely mechanical. It's almost certainly a piston as it has that up and down sound to it. It might simply be (as I've had suggested by several folk) that the cylinder is just dry and that once it fires up oil will flow again and make it all magically better. Somehow I can't see magic making the engine run though..

Originally Posted by K6dude

Perhaps, the higher compression on one cylinder is actually an indicator of the problem...a cylinder ring/seal not quite right...some metal or grit in the block? Did you fit new cylinder rings? could be something that simple, and in these cases it usually is something basic!

I did ask about this compression myself but I've been told that its not unusual with engines that have not run for a while. The chap I speak to from Renault is a very good technician who has also done engine conversions etc in his past. Unfortunately he's not been able to look at this car (stuck on the drive) and he's no longer allowed to work on cars for other reasons so all he can do is think and suggest on the other end of the phone. Still.. he did say once its up there he'd see if he could stand in on the diagnostics and work through it with his colleagues if he gets a chance.

Originally Posted by K6dude

Maybe at the point at which that particular cylinder is getting stuck

Oddly since last night it now sounds like its not just one cylinder either. I cranked it over today and it now sounds like there is about 3 or 4 of them sounding a bit iffy. It's totally freaky. On a positive I did get one spark today... on number 3 cylinder as it cranked its very first revolution. After that, nothing on any cylinder.

Originally Posted by K6dude

"It should be noted however that while the Volvo engine designs would externally appear to be a domestic Volvo, there are apparently minor differences which mean that normal Volvo parts or tools cannot be used. On the 5 cylinder engine, the twin camshaft wheels are different to those of the Volvo 850 and thus when changing the Timing belt normal Volvo locking tools can not be used. This can cause severe confusion for many mechanics who find a surprise when attempting maintenance. The 2.5 engine is also actually a 2.4 being 2435 cc."

Thats from the wikipedia page for the Safrane - I've seen it many times and also heard the same tales of woe myself but having removed the engine and seen it with my own eyes the only difference really is a) the engine mounts and b) the orientation of the cam pulleys which ARE the same as the Volvo. I've hauled out 2 of these engines now and both are the same (except one has a automatic tensioner). For some reason though many mechanics are scared of the Safrane but none will actually tell me why. I've had many garages back out of the job and others who say its just a volvo engine will get half way through and then refuse to complete it for some stupid reason. It's as if these engines carry a bad omen with them or something.

It's as if the car is possessed. Who ever heard of a car which has petrol, air and a spark to the dizzy but no ignition?

[strbryan]

Have you checked on your old engine that the timing marks are in the same location on your new engine when using the locking tools?

[dinky1]

Yup, both setup the same with the tool. I'm not sure about before hitting them with the tool though, as I didn't check that at the time (I'd already used the old one for practice belt changing and thus can't actually be sure). It's still got the white marks but but thats let me down already so I'd not trust those again even if i looked now.

[dinky1]

Well today the track rod end I needed to replace has refused point blank to budge so I've now had to cancel the trip to the dealers for its interrogation. I think its pretty clear that something is just determined to stop me using it again and as such: I've given up.

I've not decided what to do with it yet but I might end up breaking it if anyone wants anything... engine is Renault mounted but internals are probably the same as the volvo version.

[K6dude]

Hi again,

Had a thought last evening, don't worry, it doesn't happen too often...I'll cope.

About an hour before you next plan to try to start up, drop a quart or two (a litre) of warm oil into the top of the engine, try to make it so that it percolates as far left and right as you can through the filler. I can recommend using an old washing up liquid bottle to dispense the warmed oil, by squirting it all over the top of the rocker box area liberally.
That should partially rule out the oil supply theory after a long period of standing.

Look at your messages in a few minutes...something for you.

Mike

[dinky1]

Hi Mike

I really can't be bothered anymore. I've hauled that engine out 4 times in total iirc. 2 of those were single handedly by myself on a stoney uphill drive - and refitting it - I physically hurt myself doing it. My back hasn't been the same since either.

I've just completely run out of motivation for this car now. I love the thing to bits but I simply can't stand sinking more money into it, more time, more effort. It's just not worth it. I've got the other one that needs its breather system replacing (I've got the parts) but to be honest I can't even be bothered with that now either. I think in the long run it will just be easier to send them to the crusher and get another car. Safranes.. great cars but obviously not built with maintenance in mind.

[K6dude]

If you do decide to get rid, I can fully understand.
Let me know of any bits you might want to sell to try to recover some of your losses from the past months....I will be interested.

If I can be of any more help, and you do decide to progress some more, then drop me a line here or at ther other forum.

Regards
Mike