General: - Proposed Rolling Road day 5th.Dec. Bletchley, MK. - Page 3

don kalmar union · Nov 28th, 2009, 08:54

If I did not know otherwise I would have said that was yet another obfuscating, anonymous and tetchy post by Adam Webber.

Unreadable too.....

Don.

s60ben · Nov 28th, 2009, 08:54

I'd like to point out.

Dyno Dynamics IS liquidated - It's subject to a Australian Stock Market Release by it's parent company, and they are obligated to inform the market of any different news...

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/c...de&asxCode=AMA

Also, the parent company held 100% equity of Dyno Dynamics Europe Limited (the UK Arm) and Dyno Dynamics Ltd (New Zealand) was wound up year ending June 2009. The assets of Dyno Dynamics Europe and Aus were available for sale, however thats changed with the ASX announcement that administrators were appointed.

If you'd like to go and get any official news contrary to that, feel free... Until then, DD are in liquidation.

I'm sure the reason Dyno Dynamics dyno's are particularly popular, is nothing to do with the fact that they are/were incredibly cheap compared to the other Dyno's on the market....

As for the magazine pages... interesting in that the magazine has been suspended since Dec 08.

It's well known that Dyno's CAN be fiddled - be that with Inlet Temps, or by not calibrating it correctly (or by calibrating it wrong on purpose), or on some by the old favourite of dabbing brakes on run down etc etc.....

s60ben · Nov 28th, 2009, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyno01

I have been asked to post on this forum and point out some facts

Yes, I bet you were.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyno01

unfortunately Dyno discussions on forums always seem to turn bad usually by somebody who has a vested interest or has not been able to accept that thier car is not making the quoted power.

Yes, you clearly have a vested interest..... Hence why you've suddenly appeared with your junk science...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyno01

A Dyno Dynamics Dyno can produce plots of afr/boost/power/torque/temperature/ODBII information from the ECU/injector pulse width/injector duty cycle/tractive effort and much much more. They are one of the most popular Dyno's in the world due to thier provern accuracy and repeatability amongst the tuning and OEM communities. One of the key things about the Dyno is the way that operators can NOT interfere with the results.

Yes......... And I don't suppose taking syncronishing the RPM from Rollers allows people to seriously affect readings does it? Or by just getting the calibration purposely wrong...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyno01

but don't take my word for it

here is a graph of a car tested on an engine dyno and again on a Dyno Dynamics chassis Dyno

Thats an interesting image....

The graphs are over two years apart... Oh dear...

I've removed the rest of the images from the quote.... Interestingly enough your comments about "Vested Interests" are almost laughable...

You are clearly by that comment putting yourself above such "vested interests" aren't you..

That would be a tad difficult... especially considering the images you posted are from your photobucket account - namely the photobucket account of one Mike Gurney.... And I've replicated that image code below...

Code:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/MikeGurney/Dyno%20Accuracy/page1.jpg

Mike Gurney for those who doesn't know, just happens to be The European Dealer for Dyno Dynamics.... And is so well informed here that he didn't know anything about the parent company withdrawing their funding and placing DD into Liquidation until he made phone calls, after being informed by forum members... then came back saying the exact opposite to what the Australian Stock Market has announced....

Make your own conclusions readers as to the veracity of his claims, his clearly non-vested interests and his post in general...

I do wonder just "which tuner" asked you to pop along to support his dyno claims above....

Dyno01 · Nov 28th, 2009, 17:46

S60Ben

your understanding of how the Dyno works is incorrect (infact most of what you have typed is also incorrect)

You are however correct as to who I am

please give me a call and I will let you know how the dyno operates and anything else you want to know

Regards

Mike.

Telephone 01483 600 208

(please call during office hours)

Nuisance · Nov 28th, 2009, 18:37

Dear MR Dyno Dynamics salesman.

Can you show me verifiable proof that the majority of your dynamometers in service are an acurate measure of wheel horse power when used correctly.

Thanks.

Joules,

Mark S · Nov 28th, 2009, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by s60ben

Yes, I bet you were.....

Yes, you clearly have a vested interest..... Hence why you've suddenly appeared with your junk science...

Yes......... And I don't suppose taking syncronishing the RPM from Rollers allows people to seriously affect readings does it? Or by just getting the calibration purposely wrong...

Thats an interesting image....

The graphs are over two years apart... Oh dear...

I've removed the rest of the images from the quote.... Interestingly enough your comments about "Vested Interests" are almost laughable...

You are clearly by that comment putting yourself above such "vested interests" aren't you..

That would be a tad difficult... especially considering the images you posted are from your photobucket account - namely the photobucket account of one Mike Gurney.... And I've replicated that image code below...

Code:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/MikeGurney/Dyno%20Accuracy/page1.jpg

Mike Gurney for those who doesn't know, just happens to be The European Dealer for Dyno Dynamics.... And is so well informed here that he didn't know anything about the parent company withdrawing their funding and placing DD into Liquidation until he made phone calls, after being informed by forum members... then came back saying the exact opposite to what the Australian Stock Market has announced....

Make your own conclusions readers as to the veracity of his claims, his clearly non-vested interests and his post in general...

I do wonder just "which tuner" asked you to pop along to support his dyno claims above....

Maybe you should have asked to why the graphs were 2 years apart

Mark

s60ben · Nov 28th, 2009, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyno01

S60Ben

your understanding of how the Dyno works is incorrect (infact most of what you have typed is also incorrect)

You are however correct as to who I am

please give me a call and I will let you know how the dyno operates and anything else you want to know

Yes, I understand everybody's understanding of how any dyno works is always incorrect when dealing with dyno salesmen or companies promoting dyno's if it goes against what they want people to think.

I'm afraid the same rule applies with Dyno's as with all computer systems - Garbage in, Garbage out..... I mean, I'm sure no Dyno operator has ever ensured the IAT temps are wrong.... or has calibrated their dyno incorrectly to give higher readings... or god forbid has not used an RPM pickup and relied upon the roller RPM's but mismatched them thus moving the plot round the RPM range and altering the final BHP figures.... Or even dabbed the brakes to ensure the tranmission losses are higher on the run down.... Thats clearly not just limited to Dyno Dynamics Dyno's - the dynamic duo at HLM used to do it for fun...

But I'm sure none of that's ever happened - and even if it did, your all seeing Dyno would know about it and still return the correct figures....

I didn't need you to confirm who you were... I already knew.... I note you have ignored the point about vested interests... you have the biggest vested interests of any party, yet sidestep that comment.

Just so that everyone else can go see for themselves...
http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/c...=AMA#headlines

and

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics...idsId=01009634

But thanks for your input....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark S

Maybe you should have asked to why the graphs were 2 years apart

Mark

Hello Mr. Shead... It would appear you also subscribe to the "no-answers-all- questions" forum ethic's along with the other vested interest parties...

Surely you know the answer - after all, I understand you are the man who built/mapped that engine.

Maybe I should have also asked, what the true Tranmission Losses are that calculated the figures, and also what the measured WHP was - and whether they are within the ballpark.. I should maybe have also asked within those 2 years about what happened with the engine... I love the comparison relied on over 2 years apart..... I'm sure the owner never had anything at all changed, tweaked or altered... and not only that - I bet the all the temps matched as well...

Strange how so many traders from a small corner of southern england suddenly appear on a volvo forum - and all associated with one build/trader....

Nuisance · Nov 29th, 2009, 00:46

The rolling road business is a bloody joke.

It's got to be the only business where people can generate a measurement without any form of reference and sell that measurement to the general public.

What this industry needs is the intervention of some body like the trading standards, or weights and measures.

THEN... they need organisations like EN/BS IEC ISO or other to introduce a set of standards which specify a code of practice for operators.

These units need to be calibrated and set. then they need to be periodically verified.

When I go to do a noise measurement for a client I have to use an IEC standard measuring device. This device has to be calibrated internally against a known source by a recognised calibration outfit anually. Then prior to any measurement it has to be verified by the operator with a known pressure source. As an operator I have to show my competency and prove it. This competency is also in measurement technique and observation.

The current dyno business is akin to me allowing my trainee to measure the noise with his mobile phone (if it has a dB display on it).

There is no answer from Mr Dyno Dynamics to my previous question, as such a verification does not exist.

Thus Dyno Dynamics have no more credibility than Dynojet, Maha, or the rest.

My car has had wheel HP figures varying from 220 bhp to 319 bhp from various UK dynos.

The current situation is that the figure is purely what you (or the operator) want it to be.

Where a dyno comes in useful is as a diagnostics tool, or as a source of entertainment where people compare figures on the day.

In reality the witterings of Russ, Mr Dyno and some others are nothing more than a typhoon of buffalo dung.

Folks... your figures mean nothing.

No figure of measurement has any meaning whatsoever unless it has reference to a standard measure and that reference is calibrated. this is nothing more than willy measuring with elastic tape measures.

Nuisance · Nov 29th, 2009, 01:01

I have to state further that I have thoroughly enjoyed all the dyno days I have attended, and as a diagnostics tool they have proven invaluable.

The shootout for fun is always entertaining and the social side always exceptional.

If you want to check your car is running well, or compare it to another SAME model in the same conditions then why not.

But FFS don't think you're getting a meaningful measurement of power.

Nuisance · Nov 29th, 2009, 02:56

WTF?????

Is it me, or are those two graphs not even slightly similar.

The engine dyno shows a rising power curve. The chassis dyno shows a flat power curve.

The engine dyno shows torque peaking at 4400 rpm whereas the chassis dyno shows torque peaking at 5100 rpm. That discrepancy is HUGE and could massively mislead a tuner.

As for all that bollox of a paragraph of excuse and the "turbo had less inertia" What a pile of whale poo. Basic physics... The calculations for inertia within the turbocharger are based on the rotation of a mass around an axis. A turbo wheel set has an insignificant amount of mass relative to the forces driving it, thus an insignificant amount of inertia relative to the power of the engine (the force driving it) thus overcoming the inertial resistance of the turbocharger should take milliseconds.

A dyno run from lower revs would have had the turbo under heavier drive at the point where the engine dyno started (opposite of what the excuse is trying to say), but that inequality would have been evened out within seconds with the full fury of the 500bhp motor driving a wheel of a few grammes.
The biggest block to be driven against within the induction system has NOTHING to do with inertia. it's the back pressure from the intake to the compressor and the compressibility of the charged air. (which gives you your induction pressure).

Looks to me like the author is trying to make excuses for the failure of a flawed argument with "junk science"

All that this article states is that the max flywheel BHP on this engine can be made to read the same on a DD rolling road as on that engine dyno irrespective of NOTHING ELSE matching up.

From basic observation it would seem to me that at 5200 RPM these figures would be about 60 bhp or 12% out (when corrected) What utter bollocks.
I suppose the "correction factors" also calculate the different response of the engine over the rev range when the drivetrain is damping the rotation of the motor.???? Naaah not even close.

Hmmm nice Capri..... I wonder who did that tune..

Nov 28th, 2009, 08:54	#21
don kalmar union Trader Last Online: Yesterday 20:06 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chesham, buckinghamshire	Tetchy and anonymous... If I did not know otherwise I would have said that was yet another obfuscating, anonymous and tetchy post by Adam Webber. Unreadable too..... Don. __________________ Don.Norchi. MTE performance software , TME and Ferrita stainless exhausts, AP heavy duty clutch kits, KU single mass flywheels and LSDs. 01494 785508. email don@kalmar-union.com www.kalmar-union.com

Nov 28th, 2009, 08:54	#22
s60ben Master Member Last Online: Dec 8th, 2023 18:20 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: West Yorkshire	I'd like to point out. Dyno Dynamics IS liquidated - It's subject to a Australian Stock Market Release by it's parent company, and they are obligated to inform the market of any different news... http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/c...de&asxCode=AMA Also, the parent company held 100% equity of Dyno Dynamics Europe Limited (the UK Arm) and Dyno Dynamics Ltd (New Zealand) was wound up year ending June 2009. The assets of Dyno Dynamics Europe and Aus were available for sale, however thats changed with the ASX announcement that administrators were appointed. If you'd like to go and get any official news contrary to that, feel free... Until then, DD are in liquidation. I'm sure the reason Dyno Dynamics dyno's are particularly popular, is nothing to do with the fact that they are/were incredibly cheap compared to the other Dyno's on the market.... As for the magazine pages... interesting in that the magazine has been suspended since Dec 08. It's well known that Dyno's CAN be fiddled - be that with Inlet Temps, or by not calibrating it correctly (or by calibrating it wrong on purpose), or on some by the old favourite of dabbing brakes on run down etc etc..... __________________ http://forums.t5d5.org/ RT Mechanics Info: RT Mechanics Legal Threats RT Mechanics Poor Work

Nov 28th, 2009, 18:37	#25
Nuisance VOC Member Last Online: Jan 20th, 2019 23:05 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Local	Dear MR Dyno Dynamics salesman. Can you show me verifiable proof that the majority of your dynamometers in service are an acurate measure of wheel horse power when used correctly. Thanks. Joules, __________________ *To summarize:* It is a well-known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. *To summarize the summary:* Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. *To summarize the summary of the summary:* People are a problem.

Nov 29th, 2009, 00:46	#28
Nuisance VOC Member Last Online: Jan 20th, 2019 23:05 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Local	The rolling road business is a bloody joke. It's got to be the only business where people can generate a measurement without any form of reference and sell that measurement to the general public. What this industry needs is the intervention of some body like the trading standards, or weights and measures. THEN... they need organisations like EN/BS IEC ISO or other to introduce a set of standards which specify a code of practice for operators. These units need to be calibrated and set. then they need to be periodically verified. When I go to do a noise measurement for a client I have to use an IEC standard measuring device. This device has to be calibrated internally against a known source by a recognised calibration outfit anually. Then prior to any measurement it has to be verified by the operator with a known pressure source. As an operator I have to show my competency and prove it. This competency is also in measurement technique and observation. The current dyno business is akin to me allowing my trainee to measure the noise with his mobile phone (if it has a dB display on it). There is no answer from Mr Dyno Dynamics to my previous question, as such a verification does not exist. Thus Dyno Dynamics have no more credibility than Dynojet, Maha, or the rest. My car has had wheel HP figures varying from 220 bhp to 319 bhp from various UK dynos. The current situation is that the figure is purely what you (or the operator) want it to be. Where a dyno comes in useful is as a diagnostics tool, or as a source of entertainment where people compare figures on the day. In reality the witterings of Russ, Mr Dyno and some others are nothing more than a typhoon of buffalo dung. Folks... your figures mean nothing. No figure of measurement has any meaning whatsoever unless it has reference to a standard measure and that reference is calibrated. this is nothing more than willy measuring with elastic tape measures. __________________ *To summarize:* It is a well-known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. *To summarize the summary:* Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. *To summarize the summary of the summary:* People are a problem. Last edited by Nuisance; Nov 29th, 2009 at 00:57.

Nov 29th, 2009, 01:01	#29
Nuisance VOC Member Last Online: Jan 20th, 2019 23:05 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Local	I have to state further that I have thoroughly enjoyed all the dyno days I have attended, and as a diagnostics tool they have proven invaluable. The shootout for fun is always entertaining and the social side always exceptional. If you want to check your car is running well, or compare it to another SAME model in the same conditions then why not. But FFS don't think you're getting a meaningful measurement of power. __________________ *To summarize:* It is a well-known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. *To summarize the summary:* Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. *To summarize the summary of the summary:* People are a problem.

Nov 28th, 2009, 17:46	#24
Dyno01 New Member Last Online: Nov 29th, 2009 13:11 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: london	S60Ben your understanding of how the Dyno works is incorrect (infact most of what you have typed is also incorrect) You are however correct as to who I am please give me a call and I will let you know how the dyno operates and anything else you want to know Regards Mike. Telephone 01483 600 208 (please call during office hours)

Nov 29th, 2009, 02:56	#30
Nuisance VOC Member Last Online: Jan 20th, 2019 23:05 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Local	WTF????? Is it me, or are those two graphs not even slightly similar. The engine dyno shows a rising power curve. The chassis dyno shows a flat power curve. The engine dyno shows torque peaking at 4400 rpm whereas the chassis dyno shows torque peaking at 5100 rpm. That discrepancy is HUGE and could massively mislead a tuner. As for all that bollox of a paragraph of excuse and the "turbo had less inertia" What a pile of whale poo. Basic physics... The calculations for inertia within the turbocharger are based on the rotation of a mass around an axis. A turbo wheel set has an insignificant amount of mass relative to the forces driving it, thus an insignificant amount of inertia relative to the power of the engine (the force driving it) thus overcoming the inertial resistance of the turbocharger should take milliseconds. A dyno run from lower revs would have had the turbo under heavier drive at the point where the engine dyno started (opposite of what the excuse is trying to say), but that inequality would have been evened out within seconds with the full fury of the 500bhp motor driving a wheel of a few grammes. The biggest block to be driven against within the induction system has NOTHING to do with inertia. it's the back pressure from the intake to the compressor and the compressibility of the charged air. (which gives you your induction pressure). Looks to me like the author is trying to make excuses for the failure of a flawed argument with "junk science" All that this article states is that the max flywheel BHP on this engine can be made to read the same on a DD rolling road as on that engine dyno irrespective of NOTHING ELSE matching up. From basic observation it would seem to me that at 5200 RPM these figures would be about 60 bhp or 12% out (when corrected) What utter bollocks. I suppose the "correction factors" also calculate the different response of the engine over the rev range when the drivetrain is damping the rotation of the motor.???? Naaah not even close. Hmmm nice Capri..... I wonder who did that tune.. __________________ *To summarize:* It is a well-known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. *To summarize the summary:* Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. *To summarize the summary of the summary:* People are a problem. Last edited by Nuisance; Nov 29th, 2009 at 03:25.

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