Any Advice?

[Chris152]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

I dropped out of this thread a while back when the discussion on engines and fuel systems became somewhat technical and involved. I've skimmed the last few pages and wonder if insurance is still an issue?

I agree with 'loki' (I think it was) who mentioned 'Passplus' and the IAM scheme. The IAM also do young driver sessions under controlled conditions at certain locations (I believe Siverstone is one) for those not yet of age to hold a licence.

I'm not convinced that the 'named driver' route is desirable. Being on a parent's policy will not allow the youngster to earn NCB in their own right. In the unfortunate event of an accident for which they were to blame it would almost certainly adversely affect the policyholder.

Apologies, Chris, if these points have already been adequately covered, but if not, may I offer the following suggestion? I have known it work to the advantage of several youngsters, but that was a long time ago and the rules may well have changed.

Why not purchase a cheap moped and insure that? When the time comes to insure a car, even if the insurance policy itself cannot be transferred, it could be used to demonstrate a year's hopefully claims free driving experience, which would almost certainly help in obtaining a more acceptable premium.

Are you any closer to finding a suitable car yet?

Regards, John.

Thanks John - we're at a bit of an impasse at the moment, travelling to see cars (certainly from Wales) isn't an option and I've realised that I have no payment protection if I bay off ebay and get it delivered without seeing the car. As Dave says above, the best route looks like he takes insurance once we get something with me as a named driver, which is perfect. And I'd thought about the moped idea, problem is he'll want to start riding that next! (MCs worry me.)
Sooo, I'm caught between waiting til the right 240 comes up and being able to travel to see it, and buying something like a cheap Golf as an interim that I can get more locally and tbh would feel more comfortable taking him out in without his being able to have more lessons with an instructor. But we can't even do that at the moment with restrictions.
I guess it's just unlucky timing on a few fronts, we'll get there!

[Laird Scooby]

Having nearly killed myself (and sustained at least one permanent injury) on two-wheeled transport Chris, i'd seriously advise against a moped or anything else similar.

In the short term while you're waiting for a 240, see if you can pick up a pre-2000 (preferably pre-1996) Astra, Honda Civic (find a 1.4 or 1.5 and the tax is cheaper than the 1.6 versions - applies to all pre-2000), Nissan Micra or something along those lines. Avoid ANYTHING French especially from that era, it will give trouble.

If you go for a Honda, i can point you in the direction of a Honda forum that although primarily for the V6 Hondas, accepts other Hondas, not sure on the Astra or Micra but i do know they're well supported online.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Having nearly killed myself (and sustained at least one permanent injury) on two-wheeled transport Chris, i'd seriously advise against a moped or anything else similar.

In the short term while you're waiting for a 240, see if you can pick up a pre-2000 (preferably pre-1996) Astra, Honda Civic (find a 1.4 or 1.5 and the tax is cheaper than the 1.6 versions - applies to all pre-2000), Nissan Micra or something along those lines. Avoid ANYTHING French especially from that era, it will give trouble.

If you go for a Honda, i can point you in the direction of a Honda forum that although primarily for the V6 Hondas, accepts other Hondas, not sure on the Astra or Micra but i do know they're well supported online.

Hi Chris,

Even as a dyed in the wool biker (I've been riding them more than 4 decades, covered many miles and still own 4 of then) I have to wholeheartedly agree with Dave. Dan is coming up to 16 this September and I would not let him have a moped or a scooter - it is one thing me (with 42 years experience) taking my life in my own hands, but altogether something else letting my boy risk his.

Dave is right: look for one of the cars he suggests - they are all good (but nothing french).

Stay alert,

Alan

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by Othen

Hi Chris,

Even as a dyed in the wool biker (I've been riding them more than 4 decades, covered many miles and still own 4 of then) I have to wholeheartedly agree with Dave. Dan is coming up to 16 this September and I would not let him have a moped or a scooter - it is one thing me (with 42 years experience) taking my life in my own hands, but altogether something else letting my boy risk his.

Dave is right: look for one of the cars he suggests - they are all good (but nothing french).

Stay alert,

Alan

Not being a parent, and with apologies to Chris, Alan, I cannot say for sure how I would feel if I it was my lad rising 16. However, if you had not taken those first tentative steps back in 1978, you would not now have those 42 years of experience (and pleasure) under your belt.

There are dangers on two wheels certainly, but they can be mitigated. There are also positives. I'm of the view that every new driver should ideally serve an apprenticeship on two wheels before graduating to four - it instills a healthy respect for road and weather conditions that no car never could.

I had my first 'adult' bicycle at 10. My senior school (6 miles away) insisted on one passing the Cycling Proficiency test before allowing one to ride to school and use of the bike sheds. Having ridden regularly for 5 years, I was ready for my first powered ride (with my own Dad behind me on his machine) when I turned 16 back in 1965.

I guess the main difference between then and now is the volume and speed of the traffic, which might well increase the risks to the point of unacceptability. In that, only you and Chris can decide.

Regards, John.

[Chris152]

He went through a phase last year of wanting a motor bike, which seems to have subsided with the realisation of how good an estate car would be for the things he likes to do. I've no idea really about bike safety and what works best, but a friend was a police motorcyclist and subsequently trained people to ride. His boy (same age as mine) wants a bike but dad says no, get a few years in a car getting to know the roads in a relatively safe environment before you move to a bike. My guess is there's not a 'right' answer, but his mate's dad's argument helped me deter my lad from going down the bike route. For the time being!
eta - and anyway, how can a motorbike compare to a Volvo 240?! :-)

[Chris152]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Having nearly killed myself (and sustained at least one permanent injury) on two-wheeled transport Chris, i'd seriously advise against a moped or anything else similar.

In the short term while you're waiting for a 240, see if you can pick up a pre-2000 (preferably pre-1996) Astra, Honda Civic (find a 1.4 or 1.5 and the tax is cheaper than the 1.6 versions - applies to all pre-2000), Nissan Micra or something along those lines. Avoid ANYTHING French especially from that era, it will give trouble.

If you go for a Honda, i can point you in the direction of a Honda forum that although primarily for the V6 Hondas, accepts other Hondas, not sure on the Astra or Micra but i do know they're well supported online.

I think the plan's now to hold fire at least til we're allowed on the road for practice with me sat next to him. Little point buying something that wasn't the first choice til then anyway, and in the meantime something might come up (240) that fits the bill and we can view more locally. I'd so much prefer the car that's a keeper, if only because any money spent will be investment for the future, rather than keeping something going until we sell it. But we'll be flexible, just wait and see what happens... :-)

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

Not being a parent, and with apologies to Chris, Alan, I cannot say for sure how I would feel if I it was my lad rising 16. However, if you had not taken those first tentative steps back in 1978, you would not now have those 42 years of experience (and pleasure) under your belt.

There are dangers on two wheels certainly, but they can be mitigated. There are also positives. I'm of the view that every new driver should ideally serve an apprenticeship on two wheels before graduating to four - it instills a healthy respect for road and weather conditions that no car never could.

I had my first 'adult' bicycle at 10. My senior school (6 miles away) insisted on one passing the Cycling Proficiency test before allowing one to ride to school and use of the bike sheds. Having ridden regularly for 5 years, I was ready for my first powered ride (with my own Dad behind me on his machine) when I turned 16 back in 1965.

I guess the main difference between then and now is the volume and speed of the traffic, which might well increase the risks to the point of unacceptability. In that, only you and Chris can decide.

Regards, John.

You have a point John, but the roads have become so busy, and everything is so much faster than 1978. I think back to the very close shaves I had in those days, frequently getting by with much more luck than judgement, and consider myself quite fortunate to have made it to 18. Almost every time I go out on a bike (motorbike or pushbike - I have done a lot of cycling as well) I experience a near miss, which with decades of experience I've become quite good at predicting, and so avoiding. Unfortunately Dan has none of that experience or (even if I say it myself) wisdom.

Dan grew but with bikes (and jet skis, water-skiing, climbing, guns, quads...) but they were all off road things (which I encouraged - trees, lakes and bushes are soft, cars and lampposts are really hard), but I'm still going to discourage him from riding a motorbike on the road until he is old enough to know better. I've coming to think that one should have a 4 or 5 year apprenticeship driving cars before graduating to a rather more demanding life with a bike. It would seem the government more of less agrees in that it is very difficult to get an unlimited licence until one is 26.

Dan says he wants my CCM when he is 17 (or thereabouts) - which I may be persuaded isn't a bad idea. The CCM is a green lane bike - registered for the road but leaning more towards the off-road. It is geared such that top speed is about 55 (maybe 60, which is plenty with knobblies) - if I believe Dan will use the bike mostly off road then he may well be have it with my blessing (as I said above, trees and bushes are pretty soft).

There are probably a few logical contradiction in this view of mine, a bit of 'do as I say, not as I do'... to that extent I sound like my father (a characteristic I never admired), but to counter that it is my job to get Dan to adulthood in good order - and a road bike will be contrary to that aim.

I suspect what will happen is that Dan will be satisfied with a car when he is 17, get some experience falling off the CCM on farm tracks and in woods, and maybe use it to get a road licence in very slow time (4-5 years as he gains some wisdom); then he will turn up on my doorstep to collect my beloved Triumph when he is 26.

:-)

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Chris152

He went through a phase last year of wanting a motor bike, which seems to have subsided with the realisation of how good an estate car would be for the things he likes to do. I've no idea really about bike safety and what works best, but a friend was a police motorcyclist and subsequently trained people to ride. His boy (same age as mine) wants a bike but dad says no, get a few years in a car getting to know the roads in a relatively safe environment before you move to a bike. My guess is there's not a 'right' answer, but his mate's dad's argument helped me deter my lad from going down the bike route. For the time being!
eta - and anyway, how can a motorbike compare to a Volvo 240?! :-)

I'd agree with your policeman friend Chris: do the apprenticeship in a car, not on a bike.

Stay alert.

Alan

[john.wigley]

Good points both, Alan. Perhaps things have changed more dramatically than I had realised; sufficient to make my view obsolete. I still think bikes (power and pedal) encourage defensive driving and an anticipation of potential hazards that you simply do not get in the insulated cocoon of a motor-car, though.

Regards, John.

[Laird Scooby]

The Mk3 Cortina that i used for the first few months after passing my test (after my dad sold the Skyline out from under me - long, bitter story!) would disagree about trees being soft! Only car i've owned where i had to get in and out Dukes of Hazzard style after it's arborocultural expedition!

Another Cortina owned by someone i went to school with would argue the same point - the driver is no longer with us and his passenger wasn't too healthy after! Sliced the car in two lengthways but he reportedly hit the tree at 95mph!

Trees can still hurt someone if they come off two-wheeled transport and hit it at any sort of speed but then so can speed limit signs when you hit them with your head hard enough to dent and bend them and tarmac hurts too when you bounce along it.

Not saying you're wrong, just recounting some of my experiences.