Restoration Project Considerations - Any Thoughts??

[4x4]

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Hi 4x4... had the electric supply cable moved from coming onto the chimney stack and then just shoved underneath the tiles, to a ducted underground supply from pole to a new meter box in an extension

I would doubt you'll have any 3 phase then

[Burdekin]

I run 3 3hp compressors, two cheapo direct drive ones and 1 belt driven. Belt driven is better, more air supply and much quieter. I also made an additional tank from a propane bottle to drop out moisture and a frazinator to also drop out moisture. You also need a 3 stage filter arrangement for the air fed, check out the metalwork ones, decent and good value. Keep an eye out for deals on eBay for Sundstrom full face mask and air fed adapter, high quality and often good deals to be found. But you won’t need spraying for a while so have time to build up the required stuff for spraying.

The Rtech 180 mig is a good welder with good after market service. I have a Portamig and is a very good welder but it’s not portable ironically. I use Adam’s gas for my welding gas, no rent on the bottle. You can do higher quality repairs with a Tig so keep that in mind but a mig is more versatile.

Zoro sell a good quality panel beating hammer and dolly kit, it’s their own brand Kennedy. Look at getting shrinker stretchers and a swagger. A tipping die set for the swagger will be a good idea. Metz tools sell the Chinese tools that are good enough for diy use. Obviously you can get buy without these but these are the tools I use a lot when doing repairs. Makita make a strong compact 4.5” grinder, I run two, one with a cutting disc and one with a flap disc and saves time.

A rotisserie is a huge time saver.

You’ll need a good amount of dry space for storage of the parts.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by Burdekin

Keep an eye out for deals on eBay for Sundstrom full face mask and air fed adapter, high quality and often good deals to be found.

Sundstrom is very good gear and sold exclusively in the UK (new) by ARCO, wasn't aware and haven't used air fed stuff but when I was painting in cellulose 20+ years ago I was using a Sundstrom SR100 respirator with a A3 particle filter and a P2 organic compound filter. Did the job well......

[Steve 940]

Originally Posted by Burdekin

I run 3 3hp compressors, two cheapo direct drive ones and 1 belt driven. Belt driven is better, more air supply and much quieter. I also made an additional tank from a propane bottle to drop out moisture and a frazinator to also drop out moisture. You also need a 3 stage filter arrangement for the air fed, check out the metalwork ones, decent and good value. Keep an eye out for deals on eBay for Sundstrom full face mask and air fed adapter, high quality and often good deals to be found. But you won’t need spraying for a while so have time to build up the required stuff for spraying.

The Rtech 180 mig is a good welder with good after market service. I have a Portamig and is a very good welder but it’s not portable ironically. I use Adam’s gas for my welding gas, no rent on the bottle. You can do higher quality repairs with a Tig so keep that in mind but a mig is more versatile.

Zoro sell a good quality panel beating hammer and dolly kit, it’s their own brand Kennedy. Look at getting shrinker stretchers and a swagger. A tipping die set for the swagger will be a good idea. Metz tools sell the Chinese tools that are good enough for diy use. Obviously you can get buy without these but these are the tools I use a lot when doing repairs. Makita make a strong compact 4.5” grinder, I run two, one with a cutting disc and one with a flap disc and saves time.

A rotisserie is a huge time saver.

You’ll need a good amount of dry space for storage of the parts.

Hi Mitch,

That's great information, air supply has been one of my main concerns in having enough cfm to spray as well as I can

Whilst browsing last night for single phase compressors I did stumble across

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clar...compressor-23/

Yes a chunk of ££ but if it can deliver 37 cfm then that should do I would have thought??? Might need to double up on sound insulation in the external cupboard though if I want to keep neighbours on side

Rotisserie is a given, and I think TIG might be a good option but might need practice, my BIL has TIG so will see if I can have a go and see how I get on

Will look into the other tool suggestions as I don't have any panel beating gear at all, well, if a lump hammer doesn't qualify

English wheel with shrinker stretcher attachment and powered swager project??

Oh that's plenty enough for me up the wooden hill

Cheers
Steve

[Burdekin]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

Sundstrom is very good gear and sold exclusively in the UK (new) by ARCO, wasn't aware and haven't used air fed stuff but when I was painting in cellulose 20+ years ago I was using a Sundstrom SR100 respirator with a A3 particle filter and a P2 organic compound filter. Did the job well......

That's the advantage of them, can be used with the filters or the air fed adaptor. On mine the air fed adaptor goes where the filters go..I have two and some half masks as they come up cheap on ebay and like you said top quality.

[Burdekin]

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Hi Mitch,

That's great information, air supply has been one of my main concerns in having enough cfm to spray as well as I can

Whilst browsing last night for single phase compressors I did stumble across

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clar...compressor-23/

Yes a chunk of ££ but if it can deliver 37 cfm then that should do I would have thought??? Might need to double up on sound insulation in the external cupboard though if I want to keep neighbours on side

Rotisserie is a given, and I think TIG might be a good option but might need practice, my BIL has TIG so will see if I can have a go and see how I get on

Will look into the other tool suggestions as I don't have any panel beating gear at all, well, if a lump hammer doesn't qualify

English wheel with shrinker stretcher attachment and powered swager project??

Oh that's plenty enough for me up the wooden hill

Cheers
Steve

The start up current will be very high with that so you will need a electric system to cope. I uave the 3 compressors and run 2 on 1 circuit and 1 on another with different start pressures so I don't overload the electrics.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Hi Tannaton,

Yes I am indeed very aware of how fortunate I am, now self employed, so I have the flexibilty on how many days I work.

Appreciate your thoughts on compressor, It will be on the outside of garage wall in a sound reducing cupboard, along with my dust extractor, and yes I will be ducting new power supply from main house fuseboard, luckily my next door is a retired sparky and has reels of 'offcuts' so will put some nice thick cables in that will more than handle draw on start up.

Good points about lighting, so I think LED strips will be the way to go with white walls.

MIG suggestion, thank you and I will give that a look.

Great tip to source some crappy panels/doors to practice panel beating and welding on old metal.

Cheers
Steve

Hi Steve,

What an interesting thread this will be.

Practicing on some old panels would be a really good idea. To that end I have two Amazon rear doors that I was going to repair (that was 6 months ago) but will probably never get round to it. They are free to a good home, why don't you take them and practice your cutting, fabrication, welding and decorating skills on them.

The doors are both rotten at the bottom (the usual Amazon places), here are a few photos:









... they are sitting in the spare lean-to at the back of my garage at the mo, I was going to give them to the Romanian scrap guy the next time he called but I'm happy to hang on to them for a few months if you want to come and collect sometime. If you are interested give me a call.

Good fortune,

Alan

PS. If you made a good job of fixing them you could probably sell them on for £200 each and so at least break even.

[Steve 940]

Originally Posted by Burdekin

The start up current will be very high with that so you will need a electric system to cope. I uave the 3 compressors and run 2 on 1 circuit and 1 on another with different start pressures so I don't overload the electrics.

Hi Alan,

Very valid point, and I am aware I will need to uprate my feed from the main house fuseboard or meter box to garage, my next door is retired sparks with a shed full of cabling etc. so hopefully he will be able to provide guidance and some heavy cable to cope with start up loads.

Been thinking, as if spraying, I will have compressor running and some largish extraction fans, plus sundry lighting etc so will make sure its beefy enough to cope with those loads.

One of the earlier posts, a forum user had used a phase convert or to run a 3 phase four post lift, but I couldnt really get my head around if that's a good idea or not, so I'll check with my next door.

Cheers
Steve

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Hi Alan,

Very valid point, and I am aware I will need to uprate my feed from the main house fuseboard or meter box to garage, my next door is retired sparks with a shed full of cabling etc. so hopefully he will be able to provide guidance and some heavy cable to cope with start up loads.

Been thinking, as if spraying, I will have compressor running and some largish extraction fans, plus sundry lighting etc so will make sure its beefy enough to cope with those loads.

One of the earlier posts, a forum user had used a phase convert or to run a 3 phase four post lift, but I couldnt really get my head around if that's a good idea or not, so I'll check with my next door.

Cheers
Steve

Hi Steve,

If the biggest load will be 4HP, that works out as 3kW, or 12A at 240v, then that isn't too onerous (6mm^2 cable would do), although the start up current would be higher - your electrician would have to calculate that for you depending on the distance and fixing method, so you might well end up with 10mm^2 cable). If the garage is detached and you want to run the cables underground then the biggest issue is normally getting a large enough earth conductor to meet the regulations - but that depends on the earthing arrangement for your house. The best way around that is to use TT earthing for the garage (your neighbour will know all about that - and will also know what the earthing arrangement is for your house).

That was a long winded way of saying you will not need a 3 phase system to run what you are proposing (your single phase domestic supply will almost certainly be rated at 100A - unless it is very old). Installing 3 phase to your house would be expensive, and may not be possible depending on the demand from nearby houses.

A phase converter is just a box (either stand alone or permanently installed) that takes your 240v single phase domestic supply and (electronically) makes it into a 3 phase 415v supply so that 3 phase motors will run on it. Your total supply is still limited to 100A total of course, and bear in mind your garage will be sharing that with the rest of your house. You will need an electrician to calculate the demand and diversity to see if your system can cope. The circuit the converter runs on would generally be a 32A, so you would still need a separate circuit from your consumer unit. These normally only work up to about 4 kW (so about 10A total), but that may not be able to power a 3kW compressor motor because of the start-up current. A 4kW 3 phase converter might cost about £500 (on top of the 32A circuit).

I don't think a phase converter will help in this instance, the limitation will be current and not voltage.

That is just general guidance, without seeing the installation it isn't possible to do any more than that.

Alan

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Hi Alan,

Very valid point, and I am aware I will need to uprate my feed from the main house fuseboard or meter box to garage, my next door is retired sparks with a shed full of cabling etc. so hopefully he will be able to provide guidance and some heavy cable to cope with start up loads.

Been thinking, as if spraying, I will have compressor running and some largish extraction fans, plus sundry lighting etc so will make sure its beefy enough to cope with those loads.

One of the earlier posts, a forum user had used a phase convert or to run a 3 phase four post lift, but I couldnt really get my head around if that's a good idea or not, so I'll check with my next door.

Cheers
Steve

With compressors, generally each horse power will consume around 4 amps, but as said the start up current can be 3-4 times that. Usually you can overcome that by fitting a "C" type circuit breaker (slow acting) - this is preferable to fitting instead higher current standard breaker (and then upgrading the cable to meet regs....) but your neighbour should be able to advise.

Although mathematically 1 horse power equates to 746 watts which would be 3 amps, with efficiency losses in the motor the consumption is typically 4amps per shaft horsepower, so for a 4hp compressor you would need a 16amp circuit and you could not use a standard 13amp plug, it would need to be wired in or be a 16amp "commando" plug. But you could probably use 2.5mm twin and earth with a 20amp C-type MCB.