Engine: T5/R cone air filter heat shield

[gmain1967]

Originally Posted by Nuisance

Beware of puddles.





The same reason that the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, and many other manufacturers of VERY high performance cars DON'T use cone filters.

All those Skylines, Supras, Evos and Scoobys are built by mechanics out of after market bolt on accessories, not by teams of automotive engineers.

Want to advise BMC about puddles as well, given that they are supposed to be front mounted in a clear air flow? And any puddles likely to cause bother at the height of the foglights, are more rivers than a puddles, and I don't make a habit of driving through those...

Seem to have forgotten to answer my question though - which setup for my T4 sees more cold air on the move?

I guess we'll just disagree, but at the end of the day, that's what debate is about, aint it?!!

[gdphillips]

Originally Posted by Nuisance

Beware of puddles.





The same reason that the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, and many other manufacturers of VERY high performance cars DON'T use cone filters.

All those Skylines, Supras, Evos and Scoobys are built by mechanics out of after market bolt on accessories, not by teams of automotive engineers.

aston martin standard fit k&n cone filters.....oops my bad......

[gdphillips]

Originally Posted by rabbitwoman1977

I fitted a k&n cone filter to my 1997 V70R in dec and it pulled well,now ive noticed with all the hot weather it is not pulling so good,i was told this may be because of the cone filter sucking in so much hot air..can i buy a heat shield or has anyone made one?
any help would be grateful
thanks

si at fusion fabrications look on the net you send him what you want he will make it ......simple as ........or mellnie engineering bognor regis can make most shiney things to go under the bonnet.......

i have a mate a cryo serv im trying to make a liquid nitrogen unit that chills the air flow in to the turbo supply or air in take its on the drawing board..... just got to make it smaller.......to fit under the bonnet.....bit like air con but for the air filter

[MADRod]

Originally Posted by Nuisance

Beware of puddles.





The same reason that the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, and many other manufacturers of VERY high performance cars DON'T use cone filters.

All those Skylines, Supras, Evos and Scoobys are built by mechanics out of after market bolt on accessories, not by teams of automotive engineers.

I use a Cone Filter on mine & would beat even the Bugatti to 200mph so perhaps it works & you my friend are talking total ****e. Kieth Cowies skyline that holds the world 0-300k record (12.7secs) uses a Cone Filter as does the Norris EVO & Ollie Clarks Time Attack & TOTB winning car.
The picture shows my set-up its similar to that Volvo set-up so obviously cant work. 0-150 in 12.7 secs, 0-180 in 17.8 , 0-200 in 24 seems to suggest your talking out of your arse.



186mph in half a mile with a cone Filter surely not.

[Nuisance]

Originally Posted by MADRod

I use a Cone Filter on mine & would beat even the Bugatti to 200mph so perhaps it works & you my friend are talking total ****e. Kieth Cowies skyline that holds the world 0-300k record (12.7secs) uses a Cone Filter as does the Norris EVO & Ollie Clarks Time Attack & TOTB winning car.
The picture shows my set-up its similar to that Volvo set-up so obviously cant work. 0-150 in 12.7 secs, 0-180 in 17.8 , 0-200 in 24 seems to suggest your talking out of your arse.



186mph in half a mile with a cone Filter surely not.

Well . . . when you're using brute force and ignorance you'll still get a high speed... Look at all the yank muscle cars.

However if you actually thought about the airflow you may even get more performance.

I work with airflow calculations most days, and have to consider many factors in air density, humidity, and temperature.

The fact remains. COLDER DENSER AIR WILL ALWAYS INCREASE PERFORMANCE.

Why make life difficult for your car by trying to suck warm air from a corner of an engine bay, when higher pressure cold air is available only a few inches away.

It's not the cone filter per-se that is the issue it's where people are sucking the air from, and as your picture shows you simply haven't a clue about good airflow, or the properties of as the car moves.

You've got power for free if you pick up the air at a surface that is already being forced through the air. Maybe you need to go and study a bit of physics instead of the size of your bolt on accessories.

It's simple physics... Push a planar surface through the air at high speed and you will get a pressure increase in front of that surface and a pressure decrease behind it. If that speed is high enough and the surface sufficiently un-aerodynamic you can easily get half a bar of extra pressure for free. That surface is typically the front of your car.

In most cases the engine bay runs at a lower pressure due to the air being sucked out from below, and the heavy restriction of the air that passes through the radiator. On top of that the air has been heated by the radiators, intercoolers, condensers etc etc. Why anybody in their right mind would even think of sourcing the combustion air from the engine bay is beyond me.

Simple calculations of how much air an engine needs show how stupid the placement of air intakes in such inaccessible places is.

Lets take Russ's dyno toy.

2.319 (Engine cc) x 7000 (max rpm) / 2 (4 stoke cycle) = 8116.5 litres of air per min.

8116.5 (from above) x 3.0 (absolute boost figure (2.0boost+1.0 atmosphere)) = 24349.5 litres per minute of air, / by 60 (seconds) 405 litres per second.


Turn that into cubic feet per second and the exact figure is 14.304

Now that is roughly a lump of air about the size of a bale of hay sucked into that cone filter behind the headlight every second.

Why make life difficult for it?

Now as the intake is also trying to suck -2 bar from that already poor environment, just some crappy biscuit tin shield isn't going to stop a shed load of crap air being pulled in.

The solution is simple....

Basic physics will suffice.

Filter in SEALED box.

Box fed from the best air possible (front surface of car)

Shortest and most free air path possible.

Biggest filter surface area possible.

[gmain1967]

OK Nuisance

You still have not answered me. What about my cold air feeds, direct from the front of the car, ran as short as possible a distance, and entering the engine bay, through the same hole in the inner wing behind the headlight, that the original std Volvo setup did?

Tell me, that this setup, with as large a cone filter as I can fit in the aperture where the airbox was, is not more effective at getting more air, colder air, into a larger area, than the std setup and panel filter?

If someone, or a group, would put the money up, I am more than willing to get my car dyno'd with this setup, and the original airbox and filter back on, and see which yields more power. I can tell you which....

Fancy putting it to the test, with my car as the guineau pig?

[Nuisance]

Originally Posted by gmain1967

OK Nuisance

You still have not answered me. What about my cold air feeds, direct from the front of the car, ran as short as possible a distance, and entering the engine bay, through the same hole in the inner wing behind the headlight, that the original std Volvo setup did?

Tell me, that this setup, with as large a cone filter as I can fit in the aperture where the airbox was, is not more effective at getting more air, colder air, into a larger area, than the std setup and panel filter?

If someone, or a group, would put the money up, I am more than willing to get my car dyno'd with this setup, and the original airbox and filter back on, and see which yields more power. I can tell you which....

Fancy putting it to the test, with my car as the guineau pig?

Your setup would be perfectly fine as long as the filter isn't sucking air in around the sides of some half baked biscuit tin heat shield.

Any intake from the front of the car, outside of the engine bay will deliver cool dense air, that's where the best air is.

Real serious big BHP cars (rather than chaved scoobies) use the birdcatcher intakes which are great at sucking in cold dense air.

The only reservation I'd have with foglight intakes (only a small one) would be if you encountered a flood.

Something along the lines of the BMC CDA system routed to the front of the car is a great aftermarket option, although it may be a little small for big BHP use.

Even Stu at SW Autos managed to figure this one out... He removed the passenger side headlight to feed his intake when on the track.

The whole concept is really really simple.....

As much (cold dense) air as possible as easily as possible.... That's all there is to it. I'm astonished that some people who should easily figure this out seem to have missed the point altogether.


Not much point running intake tests on ANY dyno. You'd have better chance of plating fog. There simply isn't the airflow to make a comparative judgement. You'd be lucky to get 40mph of air from the best dyno fan. To be achieving a representative airflow at 7000rpm in 4th you'd need a 140mph dyno fan.
I have countless IAT plots run on some of the best dyno cells and believe me... In comparison to road tests you are looking at over 30 deg difference.

[Nuisance]

This is what Volvo themselves have used on the KKK equipped T5 and R cars..

Obviously the lid is removed from this airbox.


As you can see it's quite big for a 300 bhp car, bigger than most common aftermarket K&N / BSR / Pipercross cone filters.
Air is sourced from an area above and in front of the radiators, where it will be under pressure when the car is moving forwards at speed. The air path is reasonably short, and the filter quite large in comparison.

Surely if you wanted an easily breathing 600bhp car you'd want to improve on this. More cold air, bigger filter area, wider air path, bigger inlet area. Not the opposite.

[gmain1967]

As above, thankyou. You have answered my question.

Taking the light out isn't really a practical option for roaduse, so IMO, the foglight solution is about as good as it can be. I could have placed the intakes in the radiator opening, but that would possibly compromise air into the radiator, and intercooler. And they don't look too out of place.

[Nocomplaints1977]

Originally Posted by Nuisance

This is what Volvo themselves have used on the KKK equipped T5 and R cars..

Obviously the lid is removed from this airbox.


As you can see it's quite big for a 300 bhp car, bigger than most common aftermarket K&N / BSR / Pipercross cone filters.
Air is sourced from an area above and in front of the radiators, where it will be under pressure when the car is moving forwards at speed. The air path is reasonably short, and the filter quite large in comparison.

Surely if you wanted an easily breathing 600bhp car you'd want to improve on this. More cold air, bigger filter area, wider air path, bigger inlet area. Not the opposite.

As my learned friend has pointed out the airbox on those later model T5's and the R's are good.
They are capable of flowing 500+ hp, the weakpoint however is the flexpipe from the slam panel as it begins to collapse as you approach the 500hp mark.
Not really difficult to rectifiy though. It's works, and well, so no need to change it .