Bull bars?

[bobdabuilda]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

The first link you supplied is dated 2006 and refers to Autralia, not the UK.

The second link you supplied is dated 2012/13. Unfortunately it looks as though their reseach included data from the old "Sturdy/Rigid" type bars not just the new EU compliant "Frontal Protection Sytems". Check the method they used to reseach it(paragraph labelled "Method").

In contrast the link I provided contains a direct link to the EU legislation covering the new frontal protection systems.



They are very specific about what these frontal sytems must do, metal and plastic. Agreed plastic do give better result but both reduce injuries.

This Regulation lays down requirements for the construction and
functioning of motor vehicles and frontal protection systems in
order to reduce the number and severity of injuries to pedestrians
and other vulnerable road users who are hit by the fronts of
vehicles and in order to avoid such collisions.
http://www.autostylinguk.co.uk/pdf/EU-Leg-Bull-Bars.pdf

Testing based on the 2005/66/EC legislation, carried out at MIRA (one of Europe's leading vehicle design, development and certification centres), has shown that the risk of pedestrian head injury is dramatically reduced from greater than 98 per cent to less than 2 per cent when a large 4x4 is fitted with an Endura FPS. The risk of injury to the abdomen, upper leg and lower leg is also reduced with a substantial 79 per cent improvement to the pelvis and abdominal area.
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-rel...154872745.html

The fact is they were designed to reduce injuries and do so remarkably well. They have passed the stringent EU tests so can be legally fitted to UK vehicles in the knowledge that they WILL reduce injuries to other road users in the event of a front collision.

The original Aussie info was there as an outline as I didn't expect a pi$$ing contest but I'm happy to engage!

You are getting mixed up and confused with the info you're providing. Composite Frontal protection systems (all the ones you provide evidence for btw!) are very different to the item on offer in your original link. Revisit my post and you will see that I only refer to metal bullbars.

Firstly Endura FPS weren't made of METAL but a composite plastic.
The company that invented it (Concept Mouldings Ltd) went bust because of ever increasing costs to meet the stringent EU guidelines of development, they were however leaders in the field at one time.- in composite Frontal Protection Systems.

For accuracy the link by the website vendor is to 2009 EU directive which is out of date. It has and will continue to be amended the latest of which was 2011.

Commission Regulation (EU) No 459/2011 of 12 May 2011 amending the Annex to Regulation (EC) No 631/2009 laying down detailed rules for the implementation of Annex I to Regulation (EC) No 78/2009 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the type-approval of motor vehicles with regard to the protection of pedestrians and other vulnerable road users Text with EEA relevance.

I see nothing in any of the directives that says anything about the safety of METAL frontal protection systems, if indeed they even exist. The item on that website is merely a flexible hinged bullbar and like I said I would be very suspicious of their claims as to whether it is actually a fully certified Frontal Protection System. If they can do so then great!

Provide a paper documenting the evidence based research on the safety of metal construct frontal protection systems and I will be very interested as I cannot find any at all. Until then we'll have to agree to disagree on this metal items safety.

[John XC]

You might call me cynical but I find it difficult to believe that a a 60mm stainless pole whacked across my knees at 30mph will do less damage than a squidgy bumper. FPS systems may well be a "good thing" if made from the correct materials (soft plastics) but selling a steel tube design as being safe is utter nonsense IMHO.

[A lex]

The main point, which no one seems to have picked up on yet, is that bull bars look utterly ****e and out of place on XC90s.

How many Bulls do we encounter on our daily commute?

As a practical solution for vehicles that need them, I have no problem.

For everyone else, id rate them alongside Lexus lights and bean can exhausts.

[Shadeyman]

Originally Posted by bobdabuilda

The original Aussie info was there as an outline as I didn't expect a pi$$ing contest but I'm happy to engage!

You are getting mixed up and confused with the info you're providing. Composite Frontal protection systems (all the ones you provide evidence for btw!) are very different to the item on offer in your original link. Revisit my post and you will see that I only refer to metal bullbars.

Firstly Endura FPS weren't made of METAL but a composite plastic.
The company that invented it (Concept Mouldings Ltd) went bust because of ever increasing costs to meet the stringent EU guidelines of development, they were however leaders in the field at one time.- in composite Frontal Protection Systems.

For accuracy the link by the website vendor is to 2009 EU directive which is out of date. It has and will continue to be amended the latest of which was 2011.

Commission Regulation (EU) No 459/2011 of 12 May 2011 amending the Annex to Regulation (EC) No 631/2009 laying down detailed rules for the implementation of Annex I to Regulation (EC) No 78/2009 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the type-approval of motor vehicles with regard to the protection of pedestrians and other vulnerable road users Text with EEA relevance.

I see nothing in any of the directives that says anything about the safety of METAL frontal protection systems, if indeed they even exist. The item on that website is merely a flexible hinged bullbar and like I said I would be very suspicious of their claims as to whether it is actually a fully certified Frontal Protection System. If they can do so then great!

Provide a paper documenting the evidence based research on the safety of metal construct frontal protection systems and I will be very interested as I cannot find any at all. Until then we'll have to agree to disagree on this metal items safety.

The simple fact is not all Bull Bars are illegal, regardless of the material(metal or plastic) they are made of, if they comply with EU Legisation they obviously reduce injury somehow or they wouldn't comply. If you've ever removed the bumper from a car you'll know that less than an inch behind the lovely soft shinny plastic on most cars are some very solid steel beams. Personally I'd rather one of these light wieght frontal protection bars hit me than those heavy steel crumple zone beams.

I'll make this my last comment, either you like em or you don't. Personally I don't care what other people think, if I want to fit one to my car I will as long as it complies with the law.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summari.../l24275_en.htm

[bobdabuilda]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

The simple fact is not all Bull Bars are illegal, regardless of the material(metal or plastic) they are made of, if they comply with EU Legisation they obviously reduce injury somehow or they wouldn't comply. If you've ever removed the bumper from a car you'll know that less than an inch behind the lovely soft shinny plastic on most cars are some very solid steel beams. Personally I'd rather one of these light wieght frontal protection bars hit me than those heavy steel crumple zone beams.

I'll make this my last comment, either you like em or you don't. Personally I don't care what other people think, if I want to fit one to my car I will as long as it complies with the law.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summari.../l24275_en.htm

You're not getting it. Nobody is questioning your right to fit what you want to your car! I was merely pointing out that I would not believe everything that is written on a two bit website from a company that sells the product in question! It is in their interest to convince you that all is ok with it, when maybe, just maybe it isn't.... They can say anything they like regarding its safety or compliance but its down to you to check that this is indeed the case or else your in danger of finding yourself in a very intimidating legal test case, if Heaven forbid the worst should happen.

Like I said I can find nothing on the safety of METAL frontal protection systems on t'internet or elsewhere so Caveat Emptor!

Not sure why you posted up an even older link to the initial EU directive...

The Euro directive also stipulates that you have to prove that fitting the device makes the car safer than a standard car without the device. Don't you think that Volvo ( a leader in car safety innovation) would have investigated this and made it a very attractive optional extra to sell the safety aspect? Yet you don't see them on their optional extras list....

Your comment on removing the bumper is interesting and a wee bit silly if you think about it. Nobody is talking about removing the bumper but by fitting a metal bar in front of that lovely SAFETY PROVEN shock absorbing composite plastic material that the bumper is made of, you are effectively doing that. Also a lot of the info in that directive is aimed at new car manufacturers and how many metal bumpered cars do you see in new car showrooms these days?

I note that your website doesn't name them as a Frontal Protection System but calls them an 'A bar' I wonder if this is a novel way of trying to circumvent the EU directive by ambiguous means? Apparently you can fit bullbars to be used with a winch but then you have to prove a winch is necessary to the use/function of the car.....

Like others I for one would not fancy being hit by those steel bars regardless of your so far unproven claims of safety, which as far as I can see are only based on what you are reading and regurgitating from the vendors website.

PS I agree that they also look Sh8 but accept that's just personal opinion!