1800: Worthwhile engine upgrades

[Clan]

The steering was also a delight to use on the 120,silky smooth far nicer than the 144 ...

[john h]

I think with Capt Jack's car, the old auto box is the problem. A few years ago I had a 3-speed auto 164E which I converted to manual + overdrive. With no other modifications made, it felt way faster, subjectively felt like about 40% more power. Modern autos are efficient, but the old ones weren't.

John

[capt jack]

Thanks for the comments guys.

With my ES, 50 to 55 mph comes up at between 2500 and almost 3000 rpm in top, but as the speedo (and to a lesser extent the rev counter) has a slightly wobbly needle it's not always easy to tell exactly what's happening! The car will certainly sail past this sort of speed, but I have little inclination to do that - besides, if I went too fast I couldn't take in all the admiring glances!

I'm pretty confident that all is well, and that the rear axle is the right one.

I think John is right - the BW35 auto gearbox is just old fashioned, and absolutely saps power from the engine. Once had a 244 with essentially the same box, and that was incredibly frustrating to drive.

The whole reason I have my ES is because I wanted something completely different to my V70. I positively relish the fact that the driving experience is altogether different. Although the autobox doesn't really allow the car a sparkling performance I haven't driven a manual car in over half a million miles now, and I'm not sure now that I'd know what to do!

Actually, that isn't quite true. I borrowed a near new Vauxhall Vectra repmobile from work a few weeks ago. This thing was a turbodiesel with a six speed manual gearbox. I hated it from the very second I sat in the driving seat, and by the time I finished the 50-mile round trip on what must have been kangaroo diesel, there was a VERY strong smell of burning friction material from under the bonnet, so I guess my manual driving technique leaves a bit to be desired! BUT - what a dreadful car - shabby finishing, cheap materials, soulless, gutless - complete utter rubbish in fact. It was sheer bliss to get back to my 13-year-old V70 auto afterwards!

As for the handling of the ES, it is of course much better than most other cars of the era (I remember my Dad's 1970 Viva HB that I learned to drive in, and the 1972 Triumph Toledo that followed it), plus the cars of the time that I owned, including a Hillman Imp and a Triumph Spitfire. The steering is fine once moving and you quickly adapt, but it is heavy when parking. The ride is I feel actually better over poorer road surfaces than is the V70.

Last week at the Northern BKV there was the most beautiful 164, in superb order. I think if one car could sway me from my ES it would be that one - I'd even learn to drive a manual again if need be!

Cheers

Jack

[brooksjg]

I'm new (and visiting really only to sell my Dad's 120) but one technical issue has been bugging me for a while. I originally kept the 120 with the intention of re-building it as a fun / weekend car but then realised the scale of the challenge to bring it back to spec using (probably, mainly) second-hand parts. The carb, in particular, is obviously worn and though it could be re-bushed, etc. I came to realise I just couldn't dedicate enough time and effort to the whole project - hence the sale.

However..

I also started to think about what I could have achieved with the original parts and how these differ from modern cars. In particular, the ECU / engine management system. Obviously, a 60s car hasn't got one. But I assume it would be possible to 'map' the engine and customise one to suit? Then, there'd be electronic fuel injection and better ignition timing, giving improved performance and mpg. OK - it would no longer be a 'pure-bred' Volvo. But if the changes make the engine more reliable and more efficient, why should that be seen as a problem? It's also possible that adding electronics might be CHEAPER than sourcing and rebuilding things like carbs and distributors.....

The same argument could be applied to a lot of Classic (as opposed to 'vintage') cars, such as the Jag E-type with the Stromberg carbs fitted to comply with US emission regs of the period - made it into an absolute dog, with appalling fuel consumption! If such a change makes sense, I'm surprised there's no cluster of specialised suppliers offering the bits/service. Maybe it's just that I failed to find them.

If purists find this whole idea beyond the Pale, my apologies for causing offense.

[asneddon]

No, custom engine management is pretty common on the volvos. Start with a b20e engine from a p1800e(s) or 140, dump the bosh stuff and use a megasquirt system.

The engine is still a pushrod 8 valve lump so you won't get the nice power curve of a modern engine, but it should be pretty good anyway.

[classicswede]

Originally Posted by brooksjg

I also started to think about what I could have achieved with the original parts and how these differ from modern cars. In particular, the ECU / engine management system. Obviously, a 60s car hasn't got one. But I assume it would be possible to 'map' the engine and customise one to suit? Then, there'd be electronic fuel injection and better ignition timing, giving improved performance and mpg. OK - it would no longer be a 'pure-bred' Volvo. But if the changes make the engine more reliable and more efficient, why should that be seen as a problem?

It is quite possible to fit a fuel injection system to the old B18 / B20 but that is not going to make it more reliable. A well tuned carb will give evry good mpg and performance to match. I know a guy with a amazon estate that does over 40 MPG on twin su's - you cant complain at that.

Electronic ignition is a well worth while upgrade and does remove the need to re adjust points etc on a regular basis. It is well worth while upgrade on any classic car to be fair.

A fully ecu controlled ignition and injection system is quite a good idea and if combined with other mods would make a very interesting build. It is the way I'll be if I ever get around to a B20 turbo build.

[Tattyoldvan]

"The steering was also a delight to use on the 120,silky smooth far nicer than the 144 ... "

Not convinced, found the P1800 coupe i had was terrible by comparison to the 145. true both old cars, but then maybe driving an 1800 on the limit was also a bit unfair comparison. man od, certainly makes it feel faster, and engine note becomes addictive!

If you are going to tune it keep it period, When i picked up the 1800 it had an old shorock in the boot, i sold that and it paid for the mot welding and some replacement seats!

I pity the poor soul who finally bought that car off my uncle, as it was so full of fiberglass.

Wonder where it is now, must find pic, can't even remember plate

[classicswede]

Originally Posted by masonmjs

Hello to all Forum members,

This is my first post here so apologies in advance if I offend the purists amongst you by asking this question but I am a previous P1800 owner (I owned a genuine cowhorn bumpered Jensen built P1800 in the 70's) and always thought it would have benefited from more horsepower (not that I was complaining too much in those days).

So, what is a good engine upgrade for these lovely cars, I'm thinking of something in the region of 150 - 175 bhp to avoid overstressing the drive train which I was not thinking of altering (not that I would necessarily be adverse to that idea). I should add that I don't own a car yet but I am looking ....

I've been driving mostly SAAB's for many years now and they are obviously more modern and more powerful so I'm looking to relive some of my youth (happens to us all at my age I think) without unduly sacrificing the underbonnet power I have become used to.

All advice gratefully received
Mike

Hi Mike,

I'll give you a compleatly fresh reply.

We have a good start as you have a power level in mind so we have somthing to work to.

I know you don't have a car just you but before you start tuning the engine you need to get the car ready for the power.

Suspension

The suspension is going to 40 odd years old and in need of a lot of parts replacing. You'll need to go through all the ball joints bushes etc. MOT testers can often not be very strict on classic cars so you will need to go through it with a keen eye. We know that for the time the P1800 and amazon handled very well for the time but we can improve on this. The suspension bushes can be replaced with polyurathane to reduce to amount of give in the joints resulting is crisper syspension response. Springs can be replaced with stiffer/lower uprated versions and the dampers can be changed for uprated items. There are a number of different options ou there and you'll need to select what is going to be right for you. I'd be worried if a supplier told me what I needed with out checking how the car is driven and what modifications have/will be caried out.

Brakes

The original brake system is very good. The early cars with the singles circuit system were good for the time but a bit lacking by modern standards. The later dual circuit as fitted to the E and ES work exreamly well. If you have the early system then a upgrade would be a good idea - you can use parts ffrom the later cars.
You will need to make sure that are working as should be and replace and parts that need doing. Make sure you check all the brake pipes and flexis replace anything that looks at all suspect.

Wheels/tyres

you don't really want to be running around on cacky 165's do you?

If you have a S with the same size wheels as the amazon then to keep the original wheels the widest tyres that will fit is 195/65 0r 60 15's . There is some debate about going this wide on the norrow rim but it has never caused me a problem.
If you have a E or ES then the wheels are much wider and will take a 205/60 15 tyre with ease. You have the option of using alloy wheels of later model volvos if you like (240 and 740)
Fitting good quality wide low profile tyres will improve cornering and also reduce your stopping distance.


Now that that is covered we can move on to the engine mods there are many ways you could acheive the HP goal

I'll give you the traditional forula here for that goal

B20
Big valve head from E or ES (also 140 GL) Lightly cleaned up but NOT poished
R cam or a little hotter
steel timing gears
twin webber 45's or similar
4 brach exhaust manifold
free flowing 2" exhaust system
remapped ignition and probably go electronic


That should get you at the lower end of the required power. You could opt for a hotter cam would give you more but loose you low end drivability

More tuning options you have

heavily ported head with bigger race valves
roller rockers
EFI
ITB's
Bike carbs
lots of cams to choose from
boring out upto 2.2
strocker crank upto 2.4
Turbo
super changer
Other exhaust systems available

A bit more is going to be needed to give propper advice on how to tune the engien for you. Best thing to do is get the car sort the handling then do some basic mods to the engine before going to major mods.

Hope all that is of some help

[classicswede]

Originally Posted by capt jack

.

I think John is right - the BW35 auto gearbox is just old fashioned, and absolutely saps power from the engine. Once had a 244 with essentially the same box, and that was incredibly frustrating to drive.

Cheers

Jack

They do sap the power. My 145 auto feels way way slower that all the manual 140's we have. I know the box is not in the best of shape but I've always remebered the auto's been slugish. I'm quite tempted to fit a 4 speed auto from a 7 series to improve the high speed cruise. I'm much more used to 3000 rpm in 5th been 90MPH

Even with its slowness I'd still rather drive it over any FWD modern tat lol


BTW most 164's are auto and they don't feel so sluggish with the 6 pot

[blind-dog-birtles]

Hi Dai,
Any chance of you sending those parts I bought & paid for nearly 2 months ago?
Sorry to crash this thread, but Dai isn't answering my emails.
Cheers,
Pete Birtles.