Diesel DPF recall - Page 13

The Doc · Jun 26th, 2010, 17:35

Hi Bill, in my opinion, it would be prudent to drive our Volvo's slowly, when we already have evidence in at least one instance of the lube oil being diluted with 11.7% diesel as a result of this problem. BY doing so we would mitigate the potential for our further damaging our engines which would be a requirement placed on us retrospectively by any Court.
That was why I refused to drive my car after I received the oil analysis report. Had I driven it, notwithstanding Volvo's suggestion that all was well, they could have subsequently accused me of exacerbating the damage and thereby made me liable claiming contributory negligence. It is also why the dealer changed my oil as one of the first jobs the following day.
But the timing of this action is critical to our cause. We are still short of a number of key facts and the most important of these as several people have asked here is:
How many people have this problem?
If people who think they have it, could post just a one-liner saying what they think they have got the problem then that would help. Without it we are lacking some global credibility.

The Doc · Jun 26th, 2010, 17:45

Hi Nick44, can I offer a slight variation/correction on what you said in your last post please when you said. "Many members feel that Volvo are stalling on the issue until warranties expire so they can wash their hand of us."
Remember that under the Sale of Goods Act, if your car has a fundamental design defect, which has caused the damage of which you complain i.e. a prematurely blown engine (and the current situation clearly fall into that category) then you have six years to make a claim ... not just the warranty period. That is why I am continually making reference to the Court. I have no wish to enrich the Lawyers any more than I am, but my V70D5 is out of warranty in November this year. However, you will need the evidence to back up any claim and that is why I had the oil analysis. It is rock solid contemporaneous evidence that I will be able to call on should I need to. Best £60 I have spent in a long time.

Nick44 · Jun 26th, 2010, 18:00

My warranty is up in September, which is why I just purchased a 1 year 60,000 mile extension from Volvo. I'm stuck with the car on a personal lease until 2011. I've sent off for a "The Doc Sent Me" pack and as soon as I have taken a sample the oil is coming straight out of the car. My Dealer did the drain down to level and software update this morning, and I'm not going to use the car again until I get the anaylsis back.
At least it means I can steal my wife's S80 2.4 PETROL car. Much more fun to drive anyway.

The Doc · Jun 26th, 2010, 18:10

Nick44, What did the extra 1 year cost you?

Withouting wishing to hog this thread or bore people ...One other issue is that if or when you come to sell a car with this problem, if it is not definitively resolved by Volvo beforehand ... then you would be legally bound to disclose the existence of this problem to any prospective buyer. Should you then have to sell it at a discount, then the difference between the market price and the distressed sale price would constitute damages, as I discussed with Bill56 earlier.
If you don't disclose it then any buyer would have a come back on you in the same way that you have a come back on the Dealership.
Remember again please, that I am not legally qualified and this is not legal advice.
I would love to know the results of your oil analysis.

Bill_56 · Jun 26th, 2010, 18:14

My car is also outside warranty, with a 56 registration, so I will not be treating it as a warranty issue. But nor do I intend to allow Volvo to leave me high and dry with a vehicle of under four years old which may be suffering accelerated and possibly catastrophic engine wear, or whose regeneration characteristics may have changed so to make the car unsuitable for my usage.

In response to Doc's request for a one liner... well I received the recall letter, dated 7th May, so I believe I am affected. I will post a scanned copy of the letter as soon as I can, though my scanner's not playing ball today.

Nick44 · Jun 26th, 2010, 18:30

Doc, The extension was £430.
I had in mind exactly what you mean with regard to selling it on, which is exactly what I will do as soon as I can, so I thought an investment in a manufacturers warranty that can be included and transferred with the sale would probably pay for itself in the long run.
This is my first and last diesel car.
I will post here the analysis results when I get them.

Jim314 · Jun 27th, 2010, 01:48

This might be of some interest:

Quote:

Lubricant additive addresses fuel dilution issues with biodiesel blends
By Ron Kotrba

Posted June 8, 2009

For those concerned about using a B20 blend in late-model diesels that employ post-injection for controlling emissions, Chevron Oronite Company LLC developed a unique engine oil additive to help combat serious engine wear associated with methyl ester dilution in the engine oil crankcase

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/art...rticle_id=3508

The Doc · Jun 27th, 2010, 11:12

Hi Jim314, thanks for that very informative article.
For the sake of completeness can I ask you to explicitly confirm a couple points please?
Is the problem is being experienced by Volvo cars in North America?
Do you know how many different models are affected?
Are those cars European imports, i.e. Volvo does not have a local manufacturing plant or a plant that assembles Volvo kits?
Do you know how many cars are affected in the US in total? The reason I ask is that in some reports we see a figure of 155,000 vehicles affected but the UK Government safety agency (VOSA) that handles our safety recalls states that it is 20,208 but, as has been pointed out by others, there could be more than one safety recall that has been issued on this same problem because they are using different descriptors for it.
The original CNN report also stated that there are 'only' 55 reports of vehicles self powering but bearing in mind the litigation that is proceeding in the US over the Toyota safety recall debacle, as a result of fatalities then this is 55 too many.
Knowing that the problem is also being experienced by Stateside owners is good news because of the current climate to hold vehicle manufacturers to account and so a fix will be more likely.
If one possible fix is switching from a lube oil produced by Castrol (aka BP) to one produced by Chevron Oronite that would be good but my guess is having worked for the oil industry in the past, that we are probably taking a an amelioration of the problem rather than a complete resolution because at the end of the day, the issue your article does not mention explicitly is one of the dilution with diesel fuel reducing the viscosity of the oil and the associated reduction the metal protection if affords.
It is also interesting to read in the article that "Chevron Oronite Company LLC developed a unique engine oil additive to help combat serious engine wear associated with methyl ester dilution in the engine oil crankcase".
So it appears that it is a serious engine wear issue, as the local oil analysts I went to have advised me.
However, it has also occurred to me to ask that if the purpose is to carry the extra diesel fuel over into the exhaust then why the hell don't they just have an injector upstream of the DPF? The answer appears in your technically authoritative article which says, "OEMs have a choice to utilize post-injection or fuel injection downstream of the engine, as in the exhaust system directly, but it is more cost-effective to use post-injection because there is no additional hardware needed to perform regeneration. "
So the OEM's have a choice, which is shall we spend the money to fix this problem by an engine modification or shall we continue jerk our customers around by stalling while their engines are damaged.
If they had offered me this as an optional extra at the time I bought the vehicle alongside the leather seats, the upgraded steering wheel, the sat nav and audio system, the alloys etc etc, then i would have bought it. But there again had I known about the problem I would probably have bought the vehicle.
Thanks again for that valuable contribution.

The Doc · Jun 27th, 2010, 11:20

Just in case there is a Volvo lawyer reading this.
The end of my last piece should have read:

If they had offered me this as an optional extra at the time I bought the vehicle, alongside the leather seats, the upgraded steering wheel, the sat nav and audio system, the alloys ,etc etc, then I would have bought it. But there again had I known about the problem I would probably have NOT bought the vehicle.

Chris_Rogers · Jun 27th, 2010, 11:30

Just to help my understanding, is the issue?

The regeneration process uses excess fuel injected into the engine to provide a fuel rich exhaust to burn off the particulate in the exhaust mounted filter.

As a consequence of this some of the bio content of the excess fuel ends up diluting the engine oil in the sump.

The issue has raised its head because of the 7% biodiesel content in the fuel mandated in the EU in 2009.

The design of the regeneration process was made before this date and consequently does not operate properly.

Or is it not as simple as that?

Jun 26th, 2010, 17:45	#122
The Doc Junior Member Last Online: Sep 15th, 2010 21:50 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Swansea	Warranty and the Sale of Goods Act Hi Nick44, can I offer a slight variation/correction on what you said in your last post please when you said. "Many members feel that Volvo are stalling on the issue until warranties expire so they can wash their hand of us." Remember that under the Sale of Goods Act, if your car has a fundamental design defect, which has caused the damage of which you complain i.e. a prematurely blown engine (and the current situation clearly fall into that category) then you have six years to make a claim ... not just the warranty period. That is why I am continually making reference to the Court. I have no wish to enrich the Lawyers any more than I am, but my V70D5 is out of warranty in November this year. However, you will need the evidence to back up any claim and that is why I had the oil analysis. It is rock solid contemporaneous evidence that I will be able to call on should I need to. Best £60 I have spent in a long time.

Jun 26th, 2010, 18:00	#123
Nick44 Ex 850/V70 Register Keepe Last Online: Nov 22nd, 2022 15:29 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hoo, Kent View Photos By: Nick44	My warranty is up in September, which is why I just purchased a 1 year 60,000 mile extension from Volvo. I'm stuck with the car on a personal lease until 2011. I've sent off for a "The Doc Sent Me" pack and as soon as I have taken a sample the oil is coming straight out of the car. My Dealer did the drain down to level and software update this morning, and I'm not going to use the car again until I get the anaylsis back. At least it means I can steal my wife's S80 2.4 PETROL car. Much more fun to drive anyway. __________________ 66,145,264 GLE,265 GLE (2 off),765 GLE,740 GL Estate, G 760 GLE Estate, N 960 CDi, W 940 SE,'51 V70 T,'56 V70 T5. '57 G3 V70 D5 '10 V70 T6 AWD Polestar (Bye Bye), Wife's '03 S80 SE I like Volvos.

Jun 26th, 2010, 18:30	#126
Nick44 Ex 850/V70 Register Keepe Last Online: Nov 22nd, 2022 15:29 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hoo, Kent View Photos By: Nick44	Doc, The extension was £430. I had in mind exactly what you mean with regard to selling it on, which is exactly what I will do as soon as I can, so I thought an investment in a manufacturers warranty that can be included and transferred with the sale would probably pay for itself in the long run. This is my first and last diesel car. I will post here the analysis results when I get them. __________________ 66,145,264 GLE,265 GLE (2 off),765 GLE,740 GL Estate, G 760 GLE Estate, N 960 CDi, W 940 SE,'51 V70 T,'56 V70 T5. '57 G3 V70 D5 '10 V70 T6 AWD Polestar (Bye Bye), Wife's '03 S80 SE I like Volvos.

Jun 27th, 2010, 11:12	#128
The Doc Junior Member Last Online: Sep 15th, 2010 21:50 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Swansea	Maybe there is a fix Hi Jim314, thanks for that very informative article. For the sake of completeness can I ask you to explicitly confirm a couple points please? Is the problem is being experienced by Volvo cars in North America? Do you know how many different models are affected? Are those cars European imports, i.e. Volvo does not have a local manufacturing plant or a plant that assembles Volvo kits? Do you know how many cars are affected in the US in total? The reason I ask is that in some reports we see a figure of 155,000 vehicles affected but the UK Government safety agency (VOSA) that handles our safety recalls states that it is 20,208 but, as has been pointed out by others, there could be more than one safety recall that has been issued on this same problem because they are using different descriptors for it. The original CNN report also stated that there are 'only' 55 reports of vehicles self powering but bearing in mind the litigation that is proceeding in the US over the Toyota safety recall debacle, as a result of fatalities then this is 55 too many. Knowing that the problem is also being experienced by Stateside owners is good news because of the current climate to hold vehicle manufacturers to account and so a fix will be more likely. If one possible fix is switching from a lube oil produced by Castrol (aka BP) to one produced by Chevron Oronite that would be good but my guess is having worked for the oil industry in the past, that we are probably taking a an amelioration of the problem rather than a complete resolution because at the end of the day, the issue your article does not mention explicitly is one of the dilution with diesel fuel reducing the viscosity of the oil and the associated reduction the metal protection if affords. It is also interesting to read in the article that "Chevron Oronite Company LLC developed a unique engine oil additive to help combat serious engine wear associated with methyl ester dilution in the engine oil crankcase". So it appears that it is a serious engine wear issue, as the local oil analysts I went to have advised me. However, it has also occurred to me to ask that if the purpose is to carry the extra diesel fuel over into the exhaust then why the hell don't they just have an injector upstream of the DPF? The answer appears in your technically authoritative article which says, "OEMs have a choice to utilize post-injection or fuel injection downstream of the engine, as in the exhaust system directly, but it is more cost-effective to use post-injection because there is no additional hardware needed to perform regeneration. " So the OEM's have a choice, which is shall we spend the money to fix this problem by an engine modification or shall we continue jerk our customers around by stalling while their engines are damaged. If they had offered me this as an optional extra at the time I bought the vehicle alongside the leather seats, the upgraded steering wheel, the sat nav and audio system, the alloys etc etc, then i would have bought it. But there again had I known about the problem I would probably have bought the vehicle. Thanks again for that valuable contribution.

Jun 27th, 2010, 11:20	#129
The Doc Junior Member Last Online: Sep 15th, 2010 21:50 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Swansea	Correction Just in case there is a Volvo lawyer reading this. The end of my last piece should have read: If they had offered me this as an optional extra at the time I bought the vehicle, alongside the leather seats, the upgraded steering wheel, the sat nav and audio system, the alloys ,etc etc, then I would have bought it. But there again had I known about the problem I would probably have NOT bought the vehicle.

Jun 26th, 2010, 17:35	#121
The Doc Junior Member Last Online: Sep 15th, 2010 21:50 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Swansea	Hi Bill, in my opinion, it would be prudent to drive our Volvo's slowly, when we already have evidence in at least one instance of the lube oil being diluted with 11.7% diesel as a result of this problem. BY doing so we would mitigate the potential for our further damaging our engines which would be a requirement placed on us retrospectively by any Court. That was why I refused to drive my car after I received the oil analysis report. Had I driven it, notwithstanding Volvo's suggestion that all was well, they could have subsequently accused me of exacerbating the damage and thereby made me liable claiming contributory negligence. It is also why the dealer changed my oil as one of the first jobs the following day. But the timing of this action is critical to our cause. We are still short of a number of key facts and the most important of these as several people have asked here is: How many people have this problem? If people who think they have it, could post just a one-liner saying what they think they have got the problem then that would help. Without it we are lacking some global credibility.

Jun 26th, 2010, 18:10	#124
The Doc Junior Member Last Online: Sep 15th, 2010 21:50 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Swansea	Nick44, What did the extra 1 year cost you? Withouting wishing to hog this thread or bore people ...One other issue is that if or when you come to sell a car with this problem, if it is not definitively resolved by Volvo beforehand ... then you would be legally bound to disclose the existence of this problem to any prospective buyer. Should you then have to sell it at a discount, then the difference between the market price and the distressed sale price would constitute damages, as I discussed with Bill56 earlier. If you don't disclose it then any buyer would have a come back on you in the same way that you have a come back on the Dealership. Remember again please, that I am not legally qualified and this is not legal advice. I would love to know the results of your oil analysis.

Jun 26th, 2010, 18:14	#125
Bill_56 Premier Member Last Online: Oct 29th, 2021 23:58 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Over the hill	My car is also outside warranty, with a 56 registration, so I will not be treating it as a warranty issue. But nor do I intend to allow Volvo to leave me high and dry with a vehicle of under four years old which may be suffering accelerated and possibly catastrophic engine wear, or whose regeneration characteristics may have changed so to make the car unsuitable for my usage. In response to Doc's request for a one liner... well I received the recall letter, dated 7th May, so I believe I am affected. I will post a scanned copy of the letter as soon as I can, though my scanner's not playing ball today.

Jun 27th, 2010, 11:30	#130
Chris_Rogers VOC Member Last Online: Apr 10th, 2017 16:55 Join Date: Jan 1970 Location: South Kent Coast	Just to help my understanding, is the issue? The regeneration process uses excess fuel injected into the engine to provide a fuel rich exhaust to burn off the particulate in the exhaust mounted filter. As a consequence of this some of the bio content of the excess fuel ends up diluting the engine oil in the sump. The issue has raised its head because of the 7% biodiesel content in the fuel mandated in the EU in 2009. The design of the regeneration process was made before this date and consequently does not operate properly. Or is it not as simple as that?

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