Amazon: New (to me) 1963 Volvo 122

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Steve 940

Blimey Alan,

... I did try to get my 940 on a classic policy, but as my daily driver with part business use, it was a no go, not unsurprisingly, but the silver lining I suppose, is that its just another 'excuse' to try to get my desired 145 as I could justify a low annual fixed costs to the better half

Cheers
Steve

I was just thinking about what you said in the above. That is exactly why historic registered vehicles are worth so much more than later ones: the tax free bit is what swings the deal with the better half. I have heard quite a few chaps on this forum say they don't mind paying the £30/month tax for their 1990s 240; that may be so but it would not be the case when trying to justify the purchase of a large, thirsty, non-historic weekend car to the long-haired general.

Just my thoughts .

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Difficult to tell from the pic, does it have individual wres to the pins or is it a floating (or even fixed) socket?
If t's a socket, you'll need to get the correct pinout to work properly but i can't help wondering how long a cheap Chinese flasher unit will last.

That said, it's rated at 180W so only running 42W + telltale (1.2W usually) it's not exactly going to work hard.

... it has a 3 pin socket for the Lucar pins Dave. The pin out is exactly the same (but the pins are marked differently):

L (=L): to the switch and on to the two luminaires.
E (=P): to earth via the tell tale on the dashboard.
B (=X): 12v supply via all stations to the battery.

... so it should be a push fit.

In the meantime I've found a UK supplied electronic relay in an aluminium cylinder for only £3.99, so it looks the same as the Lucas 35020:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255602497424

... this one even has the same pinout markings as the original (L, P, X).

I'll fit whichever relay arrives first; if it comes via the Royal Mail I'd say it is by no means that the UK supplied one will arrive before the Chinese one. I rather suspect the Chinese supplied one would last just as long as the UK item (it may well have the same components inside anyway), so I do not share your concerns on that matter).

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

... it has a 3 pin socket for the Lucar pins Dave. The pin out is exactly the same (but the pins are marked differently):

L (=L): to the switch and on to the two luminaires.
E (=P): to earth via the tell tale on the dashboard.
B (=X): 12v supply via all stations to the battery.

... so it should be a push fit.

In the meantime I've found a UK supplied electronic relay in an aluminium cylinder for only £3.99, so it looks the same as the Lucas 35020:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255602497424

... this one even has the same pinout markings as the original (L, P, X).

I'll fit whichever relay arrives first; if it comes via the Royal Mail I'd say it is by no means that the UK supplied one will arrive before the Chinese one. I rather suspect the Chinese supplied one would last just as long as the UK item (it may well have the same components inside anyway), so I do not share your concerns on that matter).

That's reassuring to know Alan, something in the back of my mind says Volvo took what Lucas offered in terms of OE relays etc and as such, would be similar to what was fitted to the British car parc at the time.
The one you've just linked to looks more original and more in keeping with GAM in general so for me, that would be the preferred choice.

As for the longevity of the Chinese relay, you may well be right, China has improved quality vastly on many things. However there is still a lot of kit made from "Chineseum" that falls over in short order so i'd say we're both right from different viewpoints and the ultimate verdict lies with the component itself and how long it lasts.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

That's reassuring to know Alan, something in the back of my mind says Volvo took what Lucas offered in terms of OE relays etc and as such, would be similar to what was fitted to the British car parc at the time.
The one you've just linked to looks more original and more in keeping with GAM in general so for me, that would be the preferred choice.

As for the longevity of the Chinese relay, you may well be right, China has improved quality vastly on many things. However there is still a lot of kit made from "Chineseum" that falls over in short order so i'd say we're both right from different viewpoints and the ultimate verdict lies with the component itself and how long it lasts.

I'd agree with all of that Dave.

The cylindrical relay does look more in keeping, but there again no one will ever see it behind the dash. The Amazon is so simple, nothing needs to be removed for access, the relay can be reached just under the steering wheel and is just clipped on.

So much is made in China today, there is a good chance that the internals of the UK supplied one originated there. On the whole I've found Chinese manufactured stuff to be pretty good (such as my iPhone for example) - remember Tesla motor cars are made there, and whatever one thinks about them the Model X does sell for £110,000.

[Bob 1967]

Originally Posted by Othen

So much is made in China today, there is a good chance that the internals of the UK supplied one originated there. On the whole I've found Chinese manufactured stuff to be pretty good (such as my iPhone for example) - remember Tesla motor cars are made there, and whatever one thinks about them the Model X does sell for £110,000.

Indeed, I have bought genuine MB parts from a main dealer.
They had a hologram on the seal Mercedes Benz Germany, underneath on the box flap it said Made in China.
Outsourcing of parts is very common, I would say at least 75% of bits come from the far east.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by 142 Guy

Hyperflash is the normal result from fitting LED turn signal bulbs. Traditional magnetic flasher relays have this designed into them, the purpose being to alert the vehicle operator that a turn signal bulb has burned out (a lot of drivers appear oblivious to this feature). Because of their low current consumption, the LED looks like a burned out bulb resulting in hyper flash. The add in load resistor is a dodge to fool the flasher relay that the bulb is still there.

Not all flasher relays will hyper flash. Heavy duty / electronically timed relays will maintain a constant flash rate regardless of a burned out or LED flasher bulb. I never tried LED bulbs on any of the motorcycles that I owned so have no empirically derived results to report.

If you are inclined to try a LED in the front signal lights, be aware that true amber LEDs generally have very low lumen ratings. You can get 'white' LEDs with very high lumen ratings; but, they are not truly 'white'. There are some 'white' LEDs that were a combination of a red, green and blue LED that you perceive as white (like RGB on your TV screen); but, these are generally low lumen. The more common high lumen white LEDs are actually a high power blue LED combined with a phosphor which absorbs blue light and re emits in the yellow spectrum (the yellow phosphor is easy to spot in some LEDs). The combined blue and yellow light fools the brain into looking like it is white. The down side is that an amber signal lens is a filter that passes yellow light. Since these phosphor based LEDs don't produce very much yellow light their performance behind an amber lens may be underwhelming. Not a reason to not experiment; but, just be aware that you may not get the results that you are expecting.

There are purpose built high output phosphor based LEDs that appear amber like. Car manufacturers are using them for their front turn signals; but I expect that you will have trouble finding those high output amber like LEDs in retrofit form.

The ancient non halogen incandescent bulb works remarkably well behind amber and red lens because the predominant part of the bulbs emission spectrum is towards the orange - yellow part of the spectrum.

I conducted a little experiment this morn and substituted BA15s LED bulb in place of incandescent for the indicators. As had been my experience previously with motorcycles the flashing rate was slower, not faster. I'm guessing the mechanism inside the relay is based on a bi-metallic strip, which is warming more slowly given the lower current required by the LEDs (that was only a guess).

You were absolutely right about the relative inefficiency of the 'white' LEDs through the amber signal filter. Although the pulses from the LED were sharper than the incandescent bulb, the output through the amber lens was less bright.

The white LEDs work well for the front position lamps, but I'll be sticking with incandescent bulbs for the turn signals, at least for the time being. I may experiment with some amber LEDs in the indicators once I've changed the flasher relay for the electronic type.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

I conducted a little experiment this morn and substituted BA15s LED bulb in place of incandescent for the indicators. As had been my experience previously with motorcycles the flashing rate was slower, not faster. I'm guessing the mechanism inside the relay is based on a bi-metallic strip, which is warming more slowly given the lower current required by the LEDs (that was only a guess).

You were absolutely right about the relative inefficiency of the 'white' LEDs through the amber signal filter. Although the pulses from the LED were sharper than the incandescent bulb, the output through the amber lens was less bright.

The white LEDs work well for the front position lamps, but I'll be sticking with incandescent bulbs for the turn signals, at least for the time being. I may experiment with some amber LEDs in the indicators once I've changed the flasher relay for the electronic type.

You need a different design of LED bulb Alan like i linked to further up.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

You need a different design of LED bulb Alan like i linked to further up.

Maybe. I've ordered 4 amber ones to experiment with. The cost was only a fiver, so it isn't much of a gamble

[142 Guy]

Originally Posted by Othen

I conducted a little experiment this morn and substituted BA15s LED bulb in place of incandescent for the indicators. As had been my experience previously with motorcycles the flashing rate was slower, not faster. I'm guessing the mechanism inside the relay is based on a bi-metallic strip, which is warming more slowly given the lower current required by the LEDs (that was only a guess).

The old school flasher units are indeed thermal bi-metallic assemblies. When you switch on your signal lights, a low bulb current flows through a heating wire which is wrapped around or in close contact with a bimetallic spring. The spring has a separate main contact. When the spring heats up the main contact closes which causes the signal lights to come full on. When the main contacts close they by-pass the heating wire which causes the bi metallic element to cool and eventually shuts off and then the cycle repeats. So, you are correct that with this style of flasher the reduced current from the LEDs will cause the flasher unit to have a long off period because the heater is taking longer to heat up. The on period should be the same.

However, there is another style of vintage flasher relay based upon a magnetic relay which incorporates a 'thermal' element. I have attached a photo of the original Hella flasher relay from my 1971 142. It has two separate contacts. Top left is for the dash indicator. Top right is the main heavy current contact. On the main contact you will note a wire that stretches from the top of the contact assembly to the base. This wire tensions and holds the contact open. It also has high resistance and when the main contacts are open it is 'in the circuit' and heats up so it is also a thermal element which relaxes which allows the magnetic field to pull the main contact closed. On the left side you will see a coil of wire which is also a thermal sensitive resistance element. Unenergized, the relay is not a complete open circuit. It has a path resistance of about 12- 13 ohms. When you switch on the signal lights, bulb current restricted by the 12 ohm relay resistance flows through the magnetic coil, the tension wire on the main contact and the coiled resistance. This current creates a magnetic field which pulls on the main contact; but, the main contact will not close until that tension wire has heated up and relaxed which allows the main contact to close. When the main contact closes it shorts out the tension wire and coiled wire resistance elements which allows full voltage to the indicator bulbs. However, when it shorts out the resistance elements the tensioning wire cools off and eventually pulls the contact open and then the whole process starts over again.

This relay does engage in a form of hyper flash when one of the bulbs has failed or you at least one LED. The off period appears to stay approximately the same; but, the on period is definitely much shorter so the overall period of the flash is shorter. If you tried this relay with LEDs in both the front and back signal lights I don't think it will work. From personal experience, with an incandescent in back and LED in front it does hyper flash.

The relay is actually a little more complex and has some features that I have not described, in part because sussing out those details would have required disassembling the stacked elements in the base resulting in the destruction of the relay, something I was reluctant to do for a vintage 1971 relay that still worked fine.

There are hybrid electronic / electromagnetic flasher relays that are immune to hyper flash. There are also heavy duty electromechanical flasher units that are immune to hyperflash (I have a Tridon unit in my 142 at present). As a final note, there are electronic flasher relays that have built in current monitoring circuits that will initiate hyper flash if they detect low bulb current. My Acura NSX has one of these which is $$$ if you ever need to replace it.

The hyper flash function may be a market specific requirement. Most North American market cars from the 1970s on seem to exhibit hyper flash. However, in terms of actual legislation it wasn't until the late '80s or early '90s that I could find any regulations around the hyper flash requirement. That Tridon heavy duty flasher I have is clearly marked as non compliant with current vehicle regulations.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by 142 Guy

As a final note, there are electronic flasher relays that have built in current monitoring circuits that will initiate hyper flash if they detect low bulb current. My Acura NSX has one of these which is $$$ if you ever need to replace it.

If memory serves the NSX uses the same stock flasher relay as the Legend of the same period and therefore the Rover 800 (Sterling 827 in ARCoNA markets, not sure if Canada got them) - my electronic flasher relay as you describe yours cost me under £10, not sure what that is in Canadian $ but they are still available for a similar price. Whether that source would send to Canada is another matter and then there's S&H costs and import/local taxes to consider too.