I Saw The Crow (Engine Management Light) And Died..
 

First proper drive, and...

Two point five times it died.

The point five was after braking, half way round a roundabout, the management light flickered for a split second.

Other two times low speed, on/ coming off the brakes, engine just died, dash lit up.

Restarts and behaves fine after each incident.

The ATF is browner than Newcastle's finest (fresh stuff is on order), and I'm fairly sure the PCV is blocked as oil spurts from every orifice.

Wonder if either/ both of these could be causing the stall?

Although 2nd actual death, the ABS light came on and stayed on until ign off/ on again later in the run.



Edit to add - "The crow" is what a Volvo owning neighbour calls the light, after having it appear from nowhere on her estate.

A few things spring to mind, first is it low on fuel? Second, is the fuel dry? In other words, not half full of condensation? Third, fuel filter.
Fourth bad/broken earth on the engine from the battery or maybe even on the battery itself.
Fifth, is the brake servo and/or it's NRV/check-valve ok? If either is faulty and letting air into the inlet manifold during braking, the mixture will ecom too lean for the engine to keep running. Also worth checking the vac hose from inlet manifold to servo.

Could be a few other things but check those first. Also pull fuse #1 to reset the fault codes on the ECU.

Gearbox - what ATF have you bought? Also if the fluid is that bad, on no account, for any reason do a flushing change aka the Gibbon method.

Do a series of part-changes aka sump-dumps instead, usually 3-4 does it over the course of a few weeks/months depending on your mileage. If the current ATF looks like Newcastles finest, i'd do one part change, drive it a week and do another. Drive 2 weeks, repeat. Drive a month and do the third. See how it is after that month and decide whether to do a fourth part-change. Then do one a year to keep the fluid clean and fresh.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/123538370254

Easiest way to do a part-change is invest in one of those pumps, reverse the car onto a set of ramps after driving 5-8 miles to get the ATF hot, switch off and remove the gearbox dipstick. Feed the long thin suction tube down the dipstick tube as far as you can get it (sometimes needs a wiggle at the bottom), arrange the thicker discharge tube into a (preferably) clear 5L empty tub, connect the leads to the battery and switch on for a few seconds then off. Repeat this on/off every few seconds until fluid starts coming through then leave on and go and have a coffee/tea while the pump does its stuff.
Come back about 20 minutes later and wait until the pump finishes pumping then switch off and remove the pump etc, putting the cap on the 5L tub and put it somewhere safe to settle.

Note roughly how much fluid came out and refill via the dipstick tube with a similar amount. Start the engine and let it circulate for about 30 seconds then drive off the ramps, holding the car on the brake cycle the box through N-R, N-D, N-2, N-1 and back to neutral/Park then pull the dipstick, wipe it clean and reinsert and remove to check the level, topping up to the cold full mark on double-sided dipsticks or the lower mark on single-sided.
Take for a few miles drive, return and recheck the level, topping up if needed to the higher mark or Hot full mark.

The benefit of reversing the car onto the ramps is all the dirt/sediment/condensation will run to the front of the box where the suction tube will be so you'll remove a lot of that stuff before the fluid. The old fluid is thin and burned (hence the colour!) so will have lost the ability to protect/condition the rubber seals in the box, doing a flushing change will dump all new, much thicker fluid straight in resulting in suddenly higher pressures on dry, brittle seals. Adding the new fluid in parts by doing the part changes introduces "seal-swell" (nickname for the product/additive in ATF that conditions the rubber seals) to the box that will start repairing the rubber allowing it to cope with the higher pressures from the new, thicker fluid gradually instaead of all at once.

As for the other reasons it may have cut out, the ATF probably isn't one of them although it has been known for old ATF to give misfire symptoms on some cars.Check your PCV system, clean the flame trap and make sure the vacuum hose on the inlet manifold for the flame trap isn't blocked - carb cleaner works well to clean these parts. Also check your EICV, with the engine of remove one of the hoses and spray carb cleaner inside it, leave to soak then repeat and let soak a few minutes more before starting the car to burn off the gunge that has been loosened. You may need to clean both sides of the valve, usually the inlet side is the main one that gets gummed up.
Whatever you do, don't touch the throttle stop screw on the throttle body - this is preset and shouldn't be touched. There is a procedure to reset it but hopefully it hasn't been touched ever.
Also do i recall correctly that you tightened the throttle cable? There should still be a little fee play in it or it can prevent the throttle butterfly full closing and activating the idle microswitch in the TPS - this can result in the mixture going lean as you slow down and that can cause the engine to stall.

Have a dig round, see what you find and can cure, post your findings and any queries on things you aren't sure about and we'll get you up and running as you should be. :thumbs_up:

Definitely got plenty of fuel (and a still working gauge!).

Servo seems OK, no obvious hisses, doesn't lean to stalling point pumping when stationary, etc.

Bought some Comma "It's fine to use in Dexron 2D boxes" AQM stuff, was figuring on doing a series of part changes over the next few weeks. Starting today, had I not managed to misplace my 12v electric pump thing...

I can't rule out watery petrol, given I've only just got the car and there's little sign it's been driven a great deal for some time. Better invest in some meths, my iso stash is probably not going to be the best potion for this.

With the engine running I feel blowby from the filler hole - But not, even if I put the cap back on/ my hand over it, through the hose from the PCV. So today's (or maybe now tomorrow's) job is whipping that off and cleaning it out.

I'll drop a bit of slack back into the throttle cable. I didn't have it guitar string tight, but I certainly only left a minimum of play in it.

And then, whether the problem goes away or not, I think I'll start working through the list of things to pop off, flush through, replace, etc.

The previous owner had two of these. I can only assume this was the one that got to sit in the corner while the other one was treated to Playstations and pizza every holiday.

Comma AQM isn't bad ATF so you should be fine - if you have an AW70/1/2 box consider going for a JWS3309 compatible fluid in the future as that's what Lexus use in their boxes which are the same apart from a few minor details.

Cheapest way of buying meths is :

https://www.toolstation.com/methylated-spirit/p99550

That should treat up to 18L (4 gallons or just over about 1/4 tank) as the ideal ratio is 1:10 which i'm guessing you know anyway.

Definitely sounds like you have PCV problems, if your flame trap isn't above the inlet manifold (Volvo changed them so they were higher on later models) consider modifying it so it is - just need a longer hose to move it from directly on top of the oil separator. and maybe a bit of small bore hose to alter the length of the other hoses.

Not sure if you've told us how many miles it on, but if it's leaking that much oil and your pcv is badly blocked you will need to replace all the front seals. Cam,Intermediate and Crankshaft. If your rear main seal has gone it's a gearbox off job.

Spurt may be an exaggeration, but the thing leaves its mark anywhere it's parked up for more than a couple of minutes. And there's that horrid film of ick in various places, including the back of the head around the dizzy cap.

Just read up on how to check fault codes, and... Apparently there are none (1 - 1 - 1).

Not sure if that makes me happy I'm not buying pricey parts, or frustrated the system doesn't know what's wrong with itself.

Main issue is I can't replicate this cutting out, it seems to do it when it feels like. And I fear it'll choose to do it at a really, really, bad time...

Edit to add: I'm still puzzled/ troubled by the ABS light staying on after the second stall, even though it behaved properly after parking a few minutes later.

Did you check position 5 and 6 for fault codes?

[QUOTE=Exasperant;2739464]Spurt may be an exaggeration, but the thing leaves its mark anywhere it's parked up for more than a couple of minutes. And there's that horrid film of ick in various places, including the back of the head around the dizzy cap.

My B200F once had an oily film around the dizzy and back of the CH. Cured by replacing the cam cover gasket.
More recently, oily film around oil filler cap and over cam cover. Cured by cleaning PCV etc. and renewing the oil filler cap rubber washer.

Cam cover gasket could certainly be contributing to the ick, and has gone on the ever extending list.

Have just removed the PCV and it's worryingly clear. I say worryingly, because I was really hoping to find a problem..

Also quick test drive, the cutting out seems related to braking. Slowing "assertively" (but not harshly) from 40 sees it die at around maybe 20. Very gentle braking doesn't seem to provoke it, or at least not in a repeatable way.

In other news, while messing with the idle control pipework the ABS light came on and now refuses to go off.....

Did you remove all the pcv components or just the top hoses ?

Did you check the small bore manifold stub on the vac side of the flame trap to ensure it was clear and providing vacuum to the flametrap? If it isn't, it will allow pressure to build in the crankcase causing oil leaks and lack of willingness to idle without extra fuel - also check the idle microswitch is closed when the throttle is released - you can open the throttle by hand under the bonnet and you should hear it click open, likewise when releasing the throttle gently you will hear it click closed again.

You seem (on the face of it) to be losing fuel during braking. Was it you that had the pump/sender unit out? If so, are you sure you got it back in correctly? There are two arrows along an imaginary horizontal line on early cars, just one in the 12 o'clock position on later cars, difficult to see as they're often covered with decades-old dirt, they're faint to start with too.
If you haven't quite got the sender vertical the pump won't be at the bottom of the tank so as you brake, the fuel will run to the front of the tank leaving the pump uncovered.

The idle and ABS warning light aren't connected so it seems to be a coincidence. When you first start the car, does the ABS light go off or does it remain on and does the charge warning light come on at position 2 and go out and remain out once the engine is running?

Haven't checked the small pipe as yet - Currently shopping for a PCV O ring as there wasn't one when I took it off, and I'm not convinced that's quite right..

I never got the fuel sender out fully, but it definitely went back in the same way it came out. Trouble is the car is so new to me there's been very little running to be able to pinpoint any problems starting after I'd done x or y.

Did the sensor test thing along with fault code reading last night, and the switch on the throttle body passed. However, I am wondering if it might be a bit sticky, which might perhaps explain the intermittent nature of this issue?

ABS light is staying on engine running or not. It also dims three or so times, accompanied by three clicks from the area of the ABS pump (these things are too big, I can't turn the key with my ear where I need it!).

There's definitely something amiss with either spark, fuel, air, or all three - I've read the CPS can start to fail, so next test drive I'll be trying to keep a closer eye on the rev counter. And I think the idle valve is coming off for a gum check and clean, once I've recovered from yanking the PCV.

Aside from "Why the £$&*% did I buy this stupid thing", it's quite frustrating as the engine otherwise runs fine.

Keep at it. You’ll get there eventually.

Volvo should be able to supply the O ring for the oil separator. Did you check the flame trap as well?

Lubing the throttle linkage and exercising it (with the engine off) through its range of movement should improve things if it is sticking.

It sounds like the pump motor in the ABS modulator block is sticking and/or siezed. This will cause the warning light to be on regardless if it has siezed - check the earth cable on it, the ends are prone to corrosion which could cause a current draw but not enough to get it moving resulting in higher current draw (ironic since it's not getting enough to start) and no movement of the pump so the system doesn't sense it's working.

949659 is the number for the O-ring it's about £4 from Volvo

I'll try to get an ABS fault code off the quaint little black box with jump wire thing next time i glare at the car.

I have noticed the flame trap's blocked where the vacuum ( ? ) pipe connects, so I'm assuming the bit on the manifold will be too. Don't know if that would be enough of an issue to be causing these cut outs, but will get it all cleaned through anyway.

The ABS light made me curious in case the ECU was getting itself confused about road speed, although the speedo seems to work fine the whole time.

Yes, potentially it could be. It will also cause oil leaks throughout the engine! :eek:

Oh, in case I got my wording wrong, the small pipe to the manifold, not the big one from large air hose to PCV.

It just seems so... Small.

That's the hose i'm referring to and the small bore stub on the manifold - if there is a blockage there you won't get any vacuum where it needs it in the PCV system so the crankcase will pressurise squirting oil out anywhere it can get past. Give it all a good clean, a piece of stiff wire or a small drill bit (~2mm from memory) used between your fingers or even in a small hand drill will help remove the bulk of the gunge. You'll be surprised at the improvement that alone makes to the general running!

After you've got all the PCV system clean (the whole system, not just parts!) wait a month or so and then clean it again. You'll be amazed how dirty it gets in that time! Wait another month and do it again but it should be cleaner this time, third month, check it and it should still be fairly clean so thereafer just do it while the oil is draining on the routine oil/filter changes.

Tetchily managed to check the ABS codes. Well, code. There may be more, I stopped at the first one.

215.

Which seems to mean "relay", so I wonder if that explains the clicking. Which I know most likely doesn't explain the cutting out, but I'm wondering if it's the relay itself, or maybe a shared earth with other enginey bits. So will chase the earth points, as I think has been suggested on the thread, next time I'm in the mood to remember this car exists.

That will be the relay inside the ABS modulator block. Remove the top (one screw in the middle) and pull the relay out and clean the contacts. Also find the earth for thepump motor (it's a thick wire, you can't miss is) and clean the earth on the body and where it connects to the modulator block.

When reading fault codes, you need to retrieve all the codes that section is giving or you only get half the picture of what's happening.

So, the car totally died going round a slow corner a few days ago.

Pos clamp on the battery was sort of snug, but a couple of wires coming off it weren't.

So far, since tightening things up, no more ABS, no more crow.

Also noticed no battery clamp fitted.

I know - I KNOW - you mustn't ever expect a used car to be perfect, but seriously, a flappy around barely hooked up battery!?

Best guess, the battery/ wiring moving under braking, exacerbated by the warped brake disc making everything shake, was causing an electrical dropout that coupled to the box/ torque convertor basically going freewheel at lost speeds led to stalling.

Of course, the problem could come back, but 100 miles and counting without any signs of it.

Glad you've found the problem and fixed it! Yes, that will cause those sort of problems but it shouldn't have passed an MoT with an insecure battery. That said, because the battery sits in a well and can't really go anywhere they tend to overlook it on the 7/9xx cars, if in fact they can actually see the clamp is missing.

The big problem there was the loose terminal/leads from it though.

Has anyone asked what engine/car we are dealing with here?

Stalling problem - does it happen only after acceleration?

From memory from another thread, it's a B230F (FB?) but it doesn't matter now, it's fixed :



Just one little point here, might be misinterpeting what you're saying but there's normally no electrical connection to the lock-up clutch within the torque converter, mechanical only and only above 45mph if memory serves.

If the engine is turning, so is the torque converter (TC), if the TC is turning, so is the gearbox input shaft and the hydraulic pump within the gearbox. However at low speed, there's not enough speed on the output shaft to keep the momentum of the engine going. :nah:

It's why you should never tow an auto! Certainly can't tow/bump start them! :nah:



It could also be the battery clamp was removed after the MoT perhaps to keep a better battery than the one in the car which should be an 027 or if it's the heavy duty, 096 but you will need a normal lead-acid only battery, not a "Calcium/Silver-Calcium" type as they're unlikely to charge properly.

2L turbo 940.

And no problems on acceleration (other than it being tedious getting up to 30) or steady speed, it was only happening during braking/ low speed coasting.

Yeah, pretty much. The rest of the car can't act as a flywheel, at least when speeds are low. And this has only happened at low, ie sub 20mph, speeds.


Well, the MOT time wheels/ tyres were taken off for the PO's other 940, so I'm guessing there was some sort of battery faffaround too. Although the battery fitted seems healthy enough for now (of course, it'll only turn out to be a naff one dumped in come winter..). Which... I'd tell myself is fair enough, if they terminals had been done up properly and the smegging thing had a clamp stopping it rattling down there.

I mean "after" acceleration, say when stopping at the lights.

A specific problem is if the dump valve isn't working. The ECU won't read any airflow until the inlet depressurises, and that can take a few seconds (like 5 or 10s), during that time the engine will stall if you close the throttle and try to leave it with the normal idle mixture, which will be too weak to run.

If you keep the throttle pressed a little, or clutch in and rev it up a bit, you can keep it running while it depressurises with the open loop rich mixture. It is actually the closed loop lean idle mode that kills it (usually initiated by the closed throttle switch).

I experienced this recently after my dump valve control pipe had rotted out. I had also seen it before in a family members car, who had the turbo reconditioned, but the conditioner damaged the diaphragm.

Interesting.

So far, since nipping up the "But why are they even loose, dear gods was there anything good about this car when I bought it?" terminals, it's been fault free.

But if it does it again, I'll start poking around the turbo then. Thanks!

Actually, that's not quite correct. The BMC ADO16 1100/1300 that had the Automotive Products autobox could be towed without destroying the box; IIRC the innards were configured in some strange fashion that permitted this; possibly because the box sat in the sump and space was at a premium?

One of the exceptions that proves the rule. I wonder (never having seen the inside/cutaway view) if those boxes used a conventional manual gear train with hydraulically operated clutch packs in place of the synchro hubs and would therefore be free-wheeling when not powered and also the higher level of oil to cope with lubing the engine as well as providing hydraulics for the box.

A bit of digging online reveals my guess is partly right - only partly right and i didn't foresee how the 4-speed Mini/ADO16/Allegro/Metro 4-speed auto does in fact work. Interesting reading :

https://web.archive.org/web/20131018...A/page172.html

In very simplistic terms, a set of differential style crownwheel and pinions arranged as a two-speed gear train to give one intermediate and one direct ratio. Couple this to a second similar unit and you can create at least a 4-speed box.

With that in mind, oil-splash lubrication would happen while towing so wouldn't be a problem. I suspect i could tow my other beast although the warning exists not to so i don't want to risk it. That uses what is essentially a manual gear train and hydraulic clutch packs which are operated by electronic controls and solenoid valves, shifts quicker than a manual and no heavy brake bands to incur power losses - win-win situation!