1978 245 GLE injection starting problem
 

Hi everyone, first-time Volvo owner here. As a result of London ULEZ I had to scrap my perfectly usable 2002 diesel and I bought a 1978 245 GLE, one owner from new, always garaged, 150k miles.

I will doubtless have more questions in future but for now just one.

It won't easily start.

It's a B21, I think it must be a B21E, with mechanical fuel injection. I don't know if it's a D-Jetronic or a K-Jetronic. Perhaps someone can identify it from the pic.

The ignition is all fine, fat sparks, new plugs, clean distributor cap. Tank drained and new petrol added.

Will not start from cold at all. Starts with EZ-start spray, then will sometimes carry on running, and when warm it will start again no problem. Then when it's cooled off, it won't start again.

Any ideas why and what to do next?

Many thanks,
Peter

Photos follow

It is K jet, D jet is electronic and only used on 140/164 and P1800's

To me the leads look tired and with the guard that has been added around the distributor it suggests ignition problems. Caps, rotor and leads would be worth considering

The warm up regulator could be the cold start issue also. Have you run any fuel treatment through it at all to clean things out?

Thanks CW for the advice. I think you're right, the leads do look a bit tired and cheap enough to replace. Cap and rotor look new as if recently replaced. And no, I haven't run a fuel treatment through the system, why didn't I think of that, I'll put some in the tank tomorrow and try again.

I'm not sure what the warm up regulator is or where it is. I downloaded this

http://ceb.ac.in/knowledge-center/E-...K-Jetronic.pdf

But there's no mention of warm up regulators.

I noticed that the injectors move slightly when wiggled with the hand, yet the compression is good on all cyls so there are no leaks. It this wiggling normal or should they be rigid like a spark plug?

Peter

Sorry CW, I'm blind, there is a section on the warm up regulator, but I don't know where to find it or how to test it.

There's also mention of a cold start valve, how to test this? I assume it's the injector in the middle of the manifold.

Peter

Peter:~
As already mentioned do the simple things first as these engines & fuel systems are normally spot on.
The injectors do wobbly but this isn't normally a sign of problems- they have two "O" rings on the plastic bolted holder- large inner- injector to fitting & small dia: outer fitting to cylinder head, these are quite straight forward to replace (watch for the outer ring being twisted/distorted.

I would also replace the rotor arm with a reliable "Beru" brand (keep the older as a spare)
Plugs & leads as already mentioned.
Fuel pump relay (under the glove box area) also carry a spare.
Fuel filter is worth changing.

After the above check the auxiliary air valve is open from cold (pull hose off) as it warms then it should close.
Ignition amplifiers just in front of the battery is also worth checking.

Be methodical and eliminate at each stage otherwise these engines are easily serviced.
Regards Bob.

Thanks Bob,

I will do all that stuff and hope for a good result. I love that there's loads of working space around the engine, compared to new cars where if you drop a spanner you'll never see it again.

I didn't mention that when I bought it, the car had been dry garaged for 12 years without being run. So naturally I first drained all the old fuel. Perhaps the first step would be to add fuel treatment to the tank and try running it for half an hour. And then change the fuel filter.

Any recommendations for fuel treatment? There are dozens on the market, some say they are specifically for injectors, others claim to clean the whole system.

Peter

Hi Peter

It is a long time since I had a 244gle but cold start problems are most likely to be the idle control valve. I have attatched a picture of the part so you can find it. As suggested in a previous post check that it if fully open when cold and shut when hot.
Good hunting with your problem.

Gavin

I generally use Redex (Wilco shops have descent prices at times) but most will have the same base formula so no real recommendations:~

The fuel filters are still worth changing if you don't know the last change date/tank condition.
It's the cannister on the bulk head just above the brake booster.
The nuts on these can be a pain to seal at times- low torque thread lock is useful (not full strength) and saves overtightening ---- or fuel proof gasket seal.

The car looks a worthwhile project- you will love it!

(Not wishing to give you extra work but is the timing belt age known- not expensive & an easy change on these cars)

Good Luck
Regards Bob

Hi Peter,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you get your motor car running well soon.

I'm curious about the ULEZ piece - are you saying your 1978 Volvo is exempt from the ULEZ? If so that is wonderful (but also bizarre).

Alan

PS. I've just answered my own question - I did an internet search and have found that historic taxation class vehicles are indeed exempt from the ULEZ. My 1980 244 auto (the Royal Barge) is therefore exempt, which is nice but somewhat academic as I have not driven in London for 25 years :-).

I'm disappointed- you mean the Royal barge hasn't been to the palace!
Regards Bob.

I think Alan favours the Castle, Bob, or was it the Rose and Crown? :regular_smile: J.

Indeed chaps :-)

Not wishing to depart on too much of a tangent from Peter's thread, I do find the ULEZ piece perplexing. I have (this morn) discovered that of my seven vehicles only two are ULEZ compliant, and they are the two that produce the most pollution (by far): my 1976 Suzuki 2 stroke and the RB.

I'm not complaining, I just think it amusing the knots our society ties itself in.

Alan

PS. I've just checked the other vehicles and found that the Porsche is exempt from the ULEZ surcharge as well.
PPS. My Royal Enfield is also exempt the ULEZ surcharge (and the congestion charge - I'm guessing motorcycles don't pay that).

I really feel I've joined a knowledgable and friendly community here. Thanks a lot to everybody for all information so far supplied.

I've had injection vehicles before but mostly diesel, and in any case nothing has ever needed to be done to any of the injection systems. This K-Jetronic is rather complicated and I'm trying to educate myself so that whatever I do, I properly understand what I'm doing.

I am thoroughly confused by this continuous injection business. I understand that each injector squirts fuel 4 times per cycle, so it's injecting not only during induction but also during compression, combustion and exhaust. Is this right? It seems terribly wasteful of fuel yet it can't be or nobody would use the system.

Does anyone have a link to a free download of the K-Jetronic service manual? I found something online called Gasoline Fuel-Injection System K-Jetronic Technical Instruction but it was published in 2000 and probably has little to do with my 1978 system. And I have the Haynes but the troubleshooting and testing of the injection system is pretty sketchy.

Regarding ULEZ, there are quite a few classic car enthusiasts in the London Assembly which probably came in useful during the ULEZ discussions and voting. And there weren't, in the past, that many classics in London. Since the ULEZ expansion to cover most of London on Oct 25th, there are lots more, some of them pretty bad polluters like my friend's 1968 diesel Land Rover he bought to replace his non-compliant 1999 model.

I'm all in favour of ULEZ as London air is nasty stuff. But I (and every other motorcyclist) think that motorcycles and scooters should have been exempted altogether. There are no diesel bikes, yet, so bike particulates are very low as are the NOx emissions. The majority of the dreaded Uber Eats, Deliveroo etc scooters are newish and ULEZ compliant, and as these delivery scooters are three out of every four two-wheelers one sees, there were relatively few older but not yet historic bikes around. I'm pi-ss-ed off because I have a Honda VFR800i which I love, but it's non-compliant. So I bought a 1981 Moto Guzzi V50 Monza, which is also far from compliant but it is exempt. And yes all bikes are exempt fom the congestion charge, but good luck finding free parking in the centre since Westminer Council repurposed all the free bike bays. I always pretend to be a courier and park in some private office or hospital car park.

Well, I'll get on with the Volvo investigation and as I'm bound to have additional questions, I'll be back (as the man said)

If you follow this link you may find the Bosch K-Jetronic manual listed about half way down the page:

http://www.myvolvolibrary.info/Tech_files2.html

...or I think this link will take you directly to the document:

http://www.myvolvolibrary.info/Tech_..._Manual_EN.pdf

... I don't know about it myself (the RB has a carburettor), but it seems to explain how it works from first principles.

Alan

Thank you for the first hand account of the ULEZ. I can't imagine any circumstances whereby I would drive a motor car or ride a motorcycle into London, but it is nice to know what is going on in the country.

When I lived in the capital I was always amazed how it succeeded (pretty well) in getting 8 million people to live more or less harmoniously in such a small place, and at the same time still support itself and provide leadership for the whole nation.

Alan

I've just read through the Jetronic manual in a quiet period between walking Bob and my teenage son getting up (may be some hours yet) - and it is a pretty good read.

This seems to be answer to your question about the system injecting fuel on all 4 cycles (cut and pasted from the manual, in italics:

Mixture formation
The formation of the air-fuel mixture
takes place in the intake ports and
cylinders of the engine.
The continually injected fuel coming from
the injection valves is “stored” in front of
the intake valves. When the intake valve
is opened, the air drawn in by the engine
carries the waiting “cloud” of fuel with it
into the cylinder. An ignitable air-fuel
mixture is formed during the induction
stroke due to the swirl effect.

... so the system squirts fuel into the inlet tract continuously, and it is then drawn into the cylinder when the inlet valve opens during the induction stroke, einfach.

It looks simple enough - you should have that motor car of yours running well in no time.

Alan

I have been confused about that too. You have probably been thinking that "injection" meant that fuel is squirted straight into the cylinder, like on a traditional diesel. Obviously the timing of the squirt has to be intermittant but precisely timed each cycle. Also it has to be at a very high pressure to overcome the compression. So high that accidentally getting your hand in front of the injector while testing can inject fuel through your skin into the blood - very dangerous.
So modern fuel injection is not really "injection" at all - it's just a more efficient way of pumping petrol into the engine than a carburetor. It still actually is sucked in, rather than injected.

Hence it might just as well be fed continuously.

I would check out the cold start injector which can be removed to test. It operates for a maximum of 3 seconds whilst the starter is engaged the amount of time is controlled by the thermal timer. The control pressure regulator richens the mixture coupled with the auxiliary air slide but should not prevent the engine from starting.

That's an amazing resource. I had no idea it existed. Wow. Thanks ever so much, or should I say vielen Dank?

Peter

Great advice, will follow as soon as I'm at the car's location again. Thanks!

Peter

That's exactly what I was thinking, now I get it.

Peter

This website is another useful source of manuals - just type what you're looking for into the search bar:

https://ozvolvo.org/archive/

Cheers

I have now determined that the cold start injector is faulty. During cranking, pressurised fuel gets to the banjo. 12V is present at the connector showing that the wiring and thermo time switch are intact. Yet nothing comes out at the nozzle end. I presume the solenoid winding has burnt out or otherwise lost connection.

Is this injector something that can be stripped and repaired?

I'm informed by various dealers that this (part no 462865, according to the VIN, which shows it's a 1979 model) is no longer available. Can anyone possibly sell me one or suggest breakers that might specialise in Volvos?

Peter

It seems to be still available from Scandcar:

https://classic-volvo.com/catalog/pr...28e-for-volvo/

... it is more than a little bit expensive though! It might be worth looking for one for another motor that fits (I did that with the anti-dieseling solenoid on the RB, one from a 1970s VW Beetle fitted perfectly and cost 15% of the price).

Alan

I’ve had similar problems with my 240 project which had been off the road for 13 years. While it’s an ‘88 year 2 litre, it has the K-jet set up.

Basically, when cold, it would mostly fire up perfectly then die without idling. If I revved it from start, it would pop a little and run rough until it got some warmth in it, then progressively smooth out.

The most improvements have been cleaning the idle valve (which was sticky) and replacing the non original coil - for a higher output OE one - so checking and replacing tired ignition components like plugs, leads, cap, rotor arm etc would make sense.

I previously squirted WD40 over the injector seals and they were fine (didn’t suck the WD40, or increase revs). Ditto the inlet manifold gasket and all pipe work to and from it. No air leaks.

With it still not idling properly from cold, I was wondering whether the thermal timer sensor was faulty ie not operating the cold start injector….but haven't actually tested either. Worth noting, the cold start injector operation and duration is linked to temp, so it wouldn’t necessarily spray fuel on a warm day (unless I’m mistaken).

The Haynes manual states to check the fuel relay if the thermal timer/cold start isn’t working properly - as it’s powered from it. I have a new fuel relay, so will swap it over to check.

However, I’m actually coming to the view it won’t idle from cold (and sometimes not immediately start) due to sticky/partially blocked main injectors - in particular they aren’t all fully shutting off - thus draining fuel pressure in the system overnight. I think this as Ive added injector cleaner to the tank and idling performance from cold seems to be progressively better with each long engine run (I can’t use the car on the road as the mot is out). So I’d certainly suggest you add cleaner to the fuel (mine had the main fuel filter changed, new in tank pump (yours being early may not have one) and main fuel pump.

MOT this weds - so will keep you posted if it passes and after an Italian tune up!

Well it passed!

CO level was 0.5 and I think the MOT tester said the maximum permitted is 3.5.

So I’ve ordered a long 3mm Allen key so I can temporarily adjust the mixture screw (keeping a note on the amount of clockwise adjustment) to see if richening the mixture helps with cold start idling. If it does, I’ll get it properly adjusted with a CO meter at the MOT station.

It certainly didn’t want to idle on cold start up today until I got a little warmth in the engine (circa 20 seconds of running) and was lumpy until fully warm - then ran sweet and smooth.

Good news!

I hope Peter doesn’t mind me hijacking his thread (hopefully his car’s problem is sorted…or my predicament might be of interest).

Anyhow, having driven the car post MOT, it has run well when warm but still a little lumpy when cold….and will still not idle immediately after a cold start until I keep the revs up for circa 20 seconds until some warmth gets into it.

You may remember, the CO2 fig was 0.5 at idle and the MOT man said that was very low. Well, armed with the 3mm long Allen key from Amazon, I carefully turned it clockwise (imagine the hour shorthand on a clock, I moved it no more than 1 hr) in the Air/Fuel control unit to see whether it smoothed out the running by increasing the mixture (albeit prior to getting it adjusted properly with a CO meter at a garage). Anyhow, to my surprise and disappointment, it made engine running more lumpy, and when I returned the adjustment to its previous position, it still seemed more lumpy running than on previous occasions.

I initially thought increased lumpy running following richening the mixture might accentuate a partially blocked or under performing injector, but the fact the lumpiness didn’t decrease markedly when weakening the mixture to the prior position, suggests that might not be the case?

I’m now thinking perhaps the Air/fuel control unit might be suspect. Perhaps first I should check the air sensor plate is centralised correctly (I didn’t press down unduly on the Allen key, but perhaps simply adjusting the mixture has moved it).

What do others think could be the cause/ next step? Between each step above, the engine was subsequently revved up (Allen key removed) to try and settle the idling.

Currently I’m trying to avoid either spending £££ going to a FI specialist, or trying to test the injectors and fuels distributor function myself (based on Haynes). Being a carburettor man!

Btw, if anyone has for sale an air/fuel control unit, set of injectors and warm up unit (all working) for an ‘88 B200E I might be keen!

Update some days later. I'm unable to work on the car every day much as I'd like to... but made a bit of progress.

I took off the cold start injector and tested it with 12 volts. It clicked, but was completely clogged up, couldn't blow through it. Overnight in warm alcohol ultrasonic bath... opened up with 12V. Injector sorted.

But when it was fitted back on, the engine still wouldn't start. Problem traced to thermo time switch, which was open circuit on the relay side. I shorted this out temporarily and...

Engine started instantly every time. Great. But...

Every time it started, it would falter and stop within a couple of seconds. So now I'm perplexed again. Control pressure regulator? Warm up regulator? There's certainly fresh fuel in the tank.

Here is a very short video I made showing the engine stopping after starting.

Again, any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks
Peter

There's been a lot of questionable information bandied about through this thread. There's also been some good advice. :thumbs_up:

A brief explanation of the K-Jet system - when the fuel pumps are running (that's right, there are 2!) and air is flowing into the engine, the fuel pressure in the fuel distributor increases to the point where it overcomes the injectors squirt/no-squirt point (~38-52psi) and fuel starts to flow through all 4 injectors. The "K" in K-Jetronic stands for "Kontinuierlich" which is German for "Continuously". Alan may correct my German spelling, it's a while since i used my German!

As airflow into the engine increases, the more it deflects the "paddle" in the fuel distributor which in turn increases the injection pressure - this is therefore making the injection pressure proportional to engine load. As the injector size is a constant you can see this will alter the amount of fuel injected proprtional to load.

That's it in a nutshell, however there are a few more things to check. First is the Auxiliary Air Valve (AAV) which others have mentioned. This should be completely open when cold and the ignition hasn't been switched on. Pull the hoses off it and look through, you should see a circle of daylight. While the hoses are off, give it a squirt of carburettor and air intake cleaner. While refitting the hoses, ensure they are a snug fit with no possibility to leak.

Once the engine is warm remove the hose on the air filter side of the AAV and use a torch to look into the AAV to confirm it has closed - while you have the hose off, give it a couple more squirts of carb cleaner.

Next is the idle switch on the throttle body. When the throttle is closed (ie at idle position) the microswitch should be made. It's possible some numpty has adjusted the throttle butterfly base position to change the idle speed when it should never be touched at all.

Next, the thermotime switch. If engine temperature is below a certain point (can't remember the exact temp just now) this switch will close switching the cold start injector on for a maximum of 8 seconds during cranking/initial start-up.
You suggest this switch isn't working, they rarely fail but it can happen. Check the connections and also the earth connection for it, cleaning the connections if needed.

Also worth cleaning the PCV system including the stub on the inlet manifold that provides vacuum for the PCV system - use carb cleaner to clean the insides of the various parts and stubs.

Last but not least, the coil looks filthy. Clean it and check/tighten/clean the LT connections and also check the inside of the HT connection is clean and bright, not furred up with corrosion. While on the HT side of things, remove, inspect, clean and regap the plugs. They should be 0.65-0.7mm (0.025-0.028"), if in doubt, renew them but be aware that new NGK plugs come pre-gapped at 0.9mm so WILL need closing slightly. If memory serves, should be BCPR6ES plugs for yours.

This little lot should get you running but also worth renewing the injector "O" rings, all 8 of them! Chances are, they're leaking but either way, at probably 44 years old, are likely to be perished, split and not working very well as seals. Will cost about £17 for all 8 "O" rings from Volvo.

Try some Carlube Injector cleaner, i think Hellfrauds sell it, i know they used to sell the diesel version.

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/en...te-247886.html

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/en...er-247638.html

Looks like a visit to Hellfrauds is called for, they also sell Carb & Air Intake cleaner.

Let us know how you get on. :thumbs_up:

Very helpful info Laird Scooby.

Peter, it might help if I briefly summarise the solution to my similar problem (but not necessarily same solution!).

I realised the worse idling when I attempted to richen the fuel mixture on the fuel distributor was actually due to colder ambient temperature. Trying again on a subsequent day, I got the car to run sweet and smooth from cold start up by richening the mixture (clockwise) and dialling back (anti-clockwise) the idle - both were miles out. I still need to get the mixture checked with a CO metre but doesn’t seem over rich visually or via my nose! I also changed the fuel pump relay (in case there was a problem with the switch circuit for the thermo switch and cold start injector) as I had a new spare. I can’t recall before, but certainly after these steps, the car idles at 1100 rpm when cold then drops back to 900rpm when warm (where I’ve set it) - so the cold start system appears to work. As LS said above, you don’t know who may have previously tampered with the car. In my car’s case, someone had fitted an engine preheater. I’ve removed it and had been thinking it was to mask a fuel injection problem. Now I’m just wondering whether they dialled back the fuel mixture and increased the idle screw to save money!
The only issue I have now is, if the car is left 24hrs+ and restarted it will die on start up, but then run fine next turn of the key. I’m thinking it could be fuel pressure drop off due to leaky injectors…..which I haven’t taken out nor changed the seals (although I’ve been advised to change the seals…….however filling the void around all 4 main injectors with WD40 before cold start up hasn’t improved things nor seen the WD40 disappear….so suggests to me the seals aren’t leaking badly at the moment)

Currently I’m running a full tank of high octane E5 petrol with a good dose of injector cleaner added….so will review matters once most of it has washed through the system.

Good luck with your journey…you’ll be elated when you sort it I’m sure.

Sadly spraying the WD40 round the injectors with the engine running isn't a definitive test of injector seals on a K-Jet. Because the vacuum of the engine will pull the seals inwards, it effectively tightens them and (except overrun) as idling is the highest normal vacuum, that's when they seal best. It's better (but still not ideal) to squirt round the injectors before a cold start, no guarantee that will help identify things but would give more of a result due to lack of vacuum in the manifold.

Next cold start, try this : First, turn the ignition on to key position 2 (warning lights only) then just "flick" the key into the start position 3 and release. Wait a second or two and you should hear the fuel pumps running while you wait. When they stop, turn to position 3 again and it should fire almost instantly and keep running if my idea/hunch is correct. :thumbs_up:

Many thanks Dave for your help and advice. I did squirt WD40 around the injectors before starting the car from stone cold - which made no difference tbh.

I’ll definitely try your suggestion to prime the fuel system before a proper start….and will definitely buy some new injector seals.

I previously thought the FI system should be left to others, but I’m getting braver through necessity.

Thanks again.

Stuart

Dave,

Just turned over the starter momentarily, heard the fuel pump run, then reset the key and started the car which on firing up settled to an idle….albeit a little low on the rpm initially which is probably not surprising (I didn’t have my foot on the accelerator). Interesting though, as soon as I touched the accelerator, the rpm dropped and ran lumpy for a second or two - which suggests to me it’s running lean - either mixture control or more likely injector seals leaking as you suggest (I’ve been all over the inlet side connections with WD40, engine running, looking for leaks without success). Pretty sure had I stamped on the accelerator it would’ve cut out. Once in warming up mode, the engine revved up cleanly and idled smoothly.

New seals to be ordered tomorrow!

Peter, I’m conscious this is your thread so hope this is the last from me - and that it’s been useful narrowing down your car’s issue.

Good luck!

Stuart

Based on those two posts Stuart, id also suggest the seals are the main cause.
Also just to be certain, once the engine has warmed up, does the temp guage sit vertically in the middle without moving , especially on the open road?

Actually Dave, it runs cooler than I’d expect (according to the gauge - about a third to near half way). The opposite of what it did when I first got it.

I gave the cooling a deep flush (additive) and also scraped out all the crud behind the thermostat, and back flushed the engine and heater matrix. Put a new water pump, hoses, radiator and thermostat in it. Doesn’t lose any water.

The gauge sounds as if it's reading low Stuart, it could be the 'stat is a low temperature one. The more important thing is that the needle doesn't move once it's hot until you switch off for a while.

Was it overheating or overcooling at first?

Agree Dave. I think I’ve ditched the box the new thermostat came in so I can’t check it’s specification (but it does open when the engine is warm). Fuel gauge seems accurate and the temp gauge stays rock solid when warm - whatever the circumstances idling/dual carriageway etc.

When I got the car, the temp would sky rocket after a few minutes. I would open the bonnet and squeezed the top hose and the old thermostat would open and the temp gauge would return to normal (half way between high/low). The amount of crud behind the thermostat was definitely the cause to my mind - preventing the old stat opening easily.

Car had been in a barn for 13 years (although I suspect started up during some of that time)….so I guess I only have myself to blame for saving it from the oval circuit!

Thought I’d update on my fuel injection cold starting problem (basically it would start but not idle for 15 secs or so, then run very rough at idle and eventually smooth out when fully warm).

Solution - changed the fuel pressure regulator. Not only did it idle from cold, it ran sweeter as well with no lumpiness remaining circa 1700-2000rpm.

Order of approach (trying not to spend too much £££ or mess with items likely to be OK or requiring skill to reset).

1. Cleaned the auxiliary air valve.

2. Swapped the fuel relay (as part of the switching circuit connects with fuel injection thermo switch and warm up regulator) as I had a spare.

3. Changed the 4 main injectors seals (I’d sprayed WD over the originals and there was no sign of increase in idling speed or fluid being ingested so wasn’t convinced they were the problem. They weren’t).

4. Checked the air/ fuel plate on the fuel distributor. It seemed fine.

5. Checked the hoses to and from the PCV while the fuel distributor rubber air tube was off. Found the small hose connection at the PCV had been glued. So replaced it. Idling problem persisted.

6 Managed to buy a complete and working secondhand FI system for a B200E.

7. Swapped the FI thermo sensor. No difference.

8. Swapped the warm up regulator. Success.

It’s not a given that it’ll always work out this way, but in my layman terms, if I suffer similar problems on another car I would.

1. Clean/check auxiliary air valve.
2. Spray WD40 on injector seals. If no ingestion of fluid/ rev rise, leave alone for now.
3. Swap over the warm up regulator.

Thanks for the advice on here and among the wider Volvo community. I was particularly lucky to be able to purchase a spare K jet set up - my logic being it was cheaper to buy a complete system and swap over parts systematically than book it into a fuel injection specialist. Plus I now have some additional spares.

I see on eBay you can buy warm up regulator rebuild kits. Not only does the prevalence of them on eBay confirm this is a relative regular failure point, but makes me think I may have a go at repairing my old one.